• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.




Lisbon 3.. Ha Ha Ha...

FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,992
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
The No side was parked outside the GPO everyday for about 5 weeks before the referendum

On the day of the vote a No To Lisbon car drove down my street broadcasting out their message
An utterly daft analogy to make. :rolleyes:
 


Hazlitt

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
1,092
Is this French Minister a member of the European Court of Justice, the only body which has the power to rule whether or not there's been a breach of the EU treaties?
Are you or setanta? No. Then why should we listen to your ramblings as opposed to the crazy ramblings of a French EU minister...

why did the European Council just decide to alter the EU treaties to allow for a permanent stabilisation mechanism
I thought the treaty couldn't be altered without our consent?
 

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,682
If, as the French EU minister said, the treaty had de facto been altered by the Greek bailout, this would falsify the posters previous claim that the treaty can't be altered without the consent of all the member states (in our case referendum).

Why should we listen to a random poster on an internet chat forum instead of the former president of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly ??
Why should we listen to someone just because they're involved in 'big government'? ;)

Article 125 TFEU prohibits the EU from taking on the public debts of an EU member state and prohibits one EU country from taking on the public debts of another EU country:

1. The Union shall not be liable for or assume the commitments of central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of any Member State, without prejudice to mutual financial guarantees for the joint execution of a specific project. A Member State shall not be liable for or assume the commitments of central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of another Member State, without prejudice to mutual financial guarantees for the joint execution of a specific project.
2. The Council, on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Parliament, may, as required, specify definitions for the application of the prohibitions referred to in Articles 123 and 124 and in this Article.
Does the 'bail-out' for Greece involve the EU taking liability for Greek public debts? Does it involve other EU countries taking liability for Greek public debts?
 
Last edited:

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,682
Are you or setanta? No. Then why should we listen to your ramblings as opposed to the crazy ramblings of a French EU minister...
Why indeed? Although why give more weight to someone's opinion merely because they're in government. Would you give more weight to Ludwig von Mises' opinions or Brian Cowen's?

I thought the treaty couldn't be altered without our consent?
Badly phrased on my part.

The treaties can be altered if there's agreement among all the member states and if the proposed changes are ratified in accordance with the constitutional requirements of each country.

In Ireland's case, that doesn't always require a referendum, as He3 so helpfully pointed out:

Whatever our differences over the treaty on politics.ie, there are a couple of points that we all agree on. One of them is that under our Constitution, some EU treaty changes require a referendum, but not every treaty change does so. See the threads on the Crotty case for the reasons.
http://www.politics.ie/europe/30608-lawyers-letter-blunder.html#post1056775
 

setanta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
649
If, as the French EU minister said, the treaty had de facto been altered by the Greek bailout, this would falsify the posters previous claim that the treaty can't be altered without the consent of all the member states (in our case referendum).

Why should we listen to a random poster on an internet chat forum instead of the former president of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly ??
Here's an eye-opener for you, Hazlitt. Sometimes politicians get it wrong. I know ... amazing isn't it, who'd have thought??? Your simple belief in the truth of what politicians say is really quite touching.
 

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,682
Here's an eye-opener for you, Hazlitt. Sometimes politicians get it wrong. I know ... amazing isn't it, who'd have thought??? Your simple belief in the truth of what politicians say is really quite touching.
I'm sure he has the same faith in what Dick Roche says. He's a Minister for Europe too!
 

myksav

Well-known member
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
23,555
Sometimes politicians get it wrong. I know ... amazing isn't it, who'd have thought???
Ya don't say;


And it wasn't just politicians either;
 

setanta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
649
I'm sure he has the same faith in what Dick Roche says. He's a Minister for Europe too!
LOL .. yeah, you could just see Hazlitt hanging on Dick's every word.
 

setanta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
649
Ya don't say;
Exactly, myksav. Hence the surprise that Hazlitt appears to have such touching faith in the views of Ministers for Europe, including the bould Dickie pictured grinning in the first image.
 

sondagefaux

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
15,682
:shock2:

So do random posters on internet chat boards.
Like those who claim that every proposed change to an EU treaty must be ratified by referendum in Ireland?

So do judges.
If the judges of the Irish Supreme Court make a particular interpretation of the Irish Constitution, then that interpretation stands. It can't be wrong in law. Same goes for the ECJ and the EU treaties.

Sometimes politicians tell lies too. E.g. that the Greece deficit was caused by circumstances "beyond its control" (Article 122).
So which court, with the power to rule on breaches of EU treaties, has ruled that Article 122.2 has been used incorrectly?
 

McDave

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
13,562
The current situation is that nobody knows the exact wording of the proposed treaty changes. Most importantly, the Irish Supreme Court doesn't know the exact wording of the proposed treaty changes. If the Irish Supreme Court decides that the proposed changes merit a referendum then we'll have a referendum. If the Irish Supreme Court decides there doesn't need to be a referendum, there won't be a referendum. That's how it was before Lisbon, it's how it still is.
That's the long and the short of it!
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,560
I think there is a serious danger of it being passed because: the unconstitutional abolition of 50:50 airtime in violation of the Coughlan and McKenna Judgements (the latter is relevant because RTE is subsidised by the taxpayer), being ad hoc to the ECB and the flood of EPP/PASDE/ALDE money to pro-Lisbon parties etc. I will vote no regardless, hoping that recent media debate (for once) has underlined the EU's role in creating the crisis through pro-cyclical interest-rates and Brian Lenihan has admitted this and the role of cheap labour from the Accession states since 2004. Even Tommy Gorman on Radio 1 this morning has aluded to the role of ECB interest rates in pouring oil on the fire. It is the role of monetary-policy to control inflation and that role was subverted in Ireland by a Franco-German-orientated monetary-policy.
The main crux of the problem here is that the pro-cyclical interest rates were needed by the majority inside the euro-zone when Ireland was booming. This was always going to be a problem from day 1 entry to the single currency; after all why did we break with sterling in the 1970s?

I think the main line will be to threaten people that we will have European monetary melt down if this doesn't go through, and yes the the thret of higher interest rates stick will be brought out to beat us with as well.

But if it does have to go to a referendum in Ireland I would advise taking put options on the Euro; as a currency as it will inevitably lose value when uncertainty fully emerges from the talks in Brussels. The markets don't like any uncertainty surrounding a currency so you may as well make a profit form it.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top