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Lisbon revisited


Grumpy Jack

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Lisbon has been in force for less then three months. Did you seriously expect announcements of thousands of jobs from January 1? What instant differences did you expect to see when Lisbon came into force?
 

Mitsui2

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Nov 13, 2009
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...my hope is to have an honest open debate, NOT a slagging match.
I'm sorry to say that you clearly have much more faith in human nature than I do! I'll never forget the hysteria that seemed to infect every second thread on P.ie. during the Lisbon debate - in fact I wish I could!
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Aug 23, 2009
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I think that it is great that we finally voted away our independence and sovereignty and that we are now in the advent of Global Tyranny.
 

Tig

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Feb 26, 2009
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Yeah, this is going to be a measured and thoughtful discussion.
 

Grumpy Jack

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The same differences alot of people seen, before it even came into effect. Its all about perception really. We were told this was the way forward. Im simply asking, ok, are they creating any jobs, have they announced any plans for job creation, anything down the road at all? Seems to me they got their result, now its business as normal. In fact looks like to me that the eu have told us to sort out our own mess, balance your own books.
The Yes to Jobs slogan was about convincing foreign investors that we are still committed to the EU. The Yes vote did that.

However, whether we voted Yes or No is irrelevant when we have have a bunch of clowns running the country who are doing everything in their power to (a) lose any jobs we have and (b) fail to create the conditions to create any new jobs.

That's not a Lisbon or EU problem - that is an Irish problem.
 

ibis

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Mar 12, 2005
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12,359
The same differences alot of people seen, before it even came into effect. Its all about perception really. We were told this was the way forward. Im simply asking, ok, are they creating any jobs, have they announced any plans for job creation, anything down the road at all? Seems to me they got their result, now its business as normal. In fact looks like to me that the eu have told us to sort out our own mess, balance your own books.
Well, apart from bailing us out a lot (for example). Still, to see what would have happened if we voted No, we only need to look into a parallel dimension in which that happened, and compare the job situation in that Ireland to this one.
 

Baron von Biffo

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May 16, 2007
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The Yes to Jobs slogan was about convincing foreign investors that we are still committed to the EU. The Yes vote did that.

However, whether we voted Yes or No is irrelevant when we have have a bunch of clowns running the country who are doing everything in their power to (a) lose any jobs we have and (b) fail to create the conditions to create any new jobs.

That's not a Lisbon or EU problem - that is an Irish problem.
The Yes to Jobs slogan was about gulling those voters who hadn't been terrified into voting Yes.
 

SKELLY

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Feb 23, 2009
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE"]YouTube- Yes for jobs[/ame]
 

Grumpy Jack

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The Yes to Jobs slogan was about gulling those voters who hadn't been terrified into voting Yes.
No more than the attempts by various No elements to terrify people into voting No with blatant lies about abortion, EU armies and a minimum wage of €1.83.

And what do you think a No vote would have done to job creation prospects? Do you think it would it have convinced US and Chinese investors that Ireland was a committed member of the EU and a sound place in which to invest?
 

Zaphy

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Sep 1, 2009
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BBC News - Euro MPs call for allowance boost

That's all I have to say on the matter. Well done yes voters. It's hard enough trying to put accountability on our own politicians, and stopping their greed - how in hell's name are we going to prevent it happening on a european level - these guys are going to be infinitly more untouchable.
 

Grumpy Jack

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I agree with your last comment. But, knowing that they are fools... and they are some fools at that. Were'nt the people concerned of the crap coming out of their mouths about how lisbon would be our saviour?
People simply couldn't take the chance on voting No twice. A Yes at least offered people hope. A No vote scared the bejaysus out of people because they realised while the recession was bad, there was no guarantee that things would not get a whole lot worse if we said No a second time.
 

Baron von Biffo

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No more than the attempts by various No elements to terrify people into voting No with blatant lies about abortion, EU armies and a minimum wage of €1.83.

And what do you think a No vote would have done to job creation prospects? Do you think it would it have convinced US and Chinese investors that Ireland was a committed member of the EU and a sound place in which to invest?
What's been happening around the minimum wage since we rolled over on Lisbon? Big pressure on the government to raise it?
 

Grumpy Jack

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What's been happening around the minimum wage since we rolled over on Lisbon? Big pressure on the government to raise it?
That pressure to cut the minimum wage was there before Lisbon. IBEC and ISME have been trying to have cut since it was first introduced. They haven't succeeded yet. Lisbon will not make one jot of difference to the minimum wage. Again, it is an Irish problem and a decision to raise, lower or freeze it will be taken by an Irish government. And they won't be able to blame whatever they do on Lisbon or the EU either.
 

ibis

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What's been happening around the minimum wage since we rolled over on Lisbon? Big pressure on the government to raise it?
...or fallen to €1.84?

Who the heck would raise it right now?
 

Grumpy Jack

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False hope.



Precisely. Fear was a huge component of the Yes campaign.
How do we know it was false? Lisbon has only been in force for three months. Simply too early to tell what effects it will have. The problems with job losses and lack of job creation in Ireland rest with the Irish government and its policies. Why do we alway blame the EU for the failings of our own politicians?

And fear was the only component of the No campaign.

People weighed up the choices and most took hope over fear. It is too early to tell who was right.
 

TommyO'Brien

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Jan 14, 2009
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Now that the dust has settled a little, i'd like to see peoples opinions on Lisbon. My own stance, i was against it, i think the irish people were conned and frightened into voting yes because of the economic situation. We were told europe was about jobs and recovery, it was also about europes perception of us as europeans (what a load of cack). Anyway, my hope is to have an honest open debate, NOT a slagging match. I can say with honesty, i've seen no changes for the better, and cant see anything in the pipeline from the eu that is going to bring about these jobs and recovery. I would like to ask all of you, yes and no voters, do you stand behind what you said on Oct 2nd? To try keep the debate on track, try as best you can, to focus on post lisbon. I know this will be difficult, it is repeat NOT intended to be an autopsy. Can you see lisbon working for or against us?
FFS. The thing has been only up and running three months, and yet you want to assess its effectiveness and impact????

Jesus but I'd hate to be a woman getting fertility treatment around you. Three days after the treatment started you'd be asking her "so are you pregnant yet?" and concluding if she wasn't that the treatment didn't work. :eek:

It will take years before anyone can analyse the effectiveness of Lisbon. Yet you are jumping to conclusions in three months! Wow!
 

TommyO'Brien

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The naivity of people really strikes me. We all know politicians to be the biggest liars of all. Anyway, my own fear about a yes vote, was probably more to do with the "no going back" aspect of the treaty, the self ratifiing bit, it can be amended without our imput now.
There is no self-amending bit. :roll:
 

Grumpy Jack

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Oct 26, 2008
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The naivity of people really strikes me. We all know politicians to be the biggest liars of all. Anyway, my own fear about a yes vote, was probably more to do with the "no going back" aspect of the treaty, the self ratifiing bit, it can be amended without our imput now.
Jesus, not this again. There is no "self ratifying bit". It can't be amended without our say. Any changes to EU treaties need a referendum in Ireland.
 
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