Lisbon to be amended by 'just two sentences', hoping to avoid referendum in Ireland

He3

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"The member states whose currency is the euro may establish a stability mechanism to be activated if indispensable to safeguard the stability of the euro area as a whole. The granting of any required financial assistance under the mechanism will be made subject to strict conditionality."

That is the version reportedly agreed at the Summit on 17.12.10. The pre-meeting version was:
“Member states whose currency is the euro may establish amongst themselves a stability mechanism to safeguard the stability of the euro area as a whole. The granting of financial assistance under the mechanism will be made subject to strict conditions.” The additional six words - 'to be activated if indispensable' and 'any' - were inserted after protracted negotiation according to reports.

Arthur Beesley:

EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS have reached a broad consensus on a narrow change to the Lisbon Treaty ahead of a key summit next week. They believe the revision will not transfer new powers to the EU and, therefore, may not necessitate another European referendum in Ireland. [...]

Although political haggling over the final text of the amendment continues, a diplomatic source said EU governments have reached agreement to make use of a simplified revision procedure in the Lisbon pact which would avoid the need to convene a constitutional convention.

While Dublin’s approach in the talks was to maximise the possibility of avoiding another EU vote, European diplomats believe a limited treaty change may not necessitate a referendum in Ireland.
EU summit set to back treaty change on bailouts - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 09, 2010

Imagine that.
 
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He3

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Use or abuse?
 

He3

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There is a hint of whistling past the graveyard in this report:

THE DRAFT text of the EU treaty amendment on the permanent crisis mechanism for the euro is a simple two-sentence statement that gives euro zone states the power to establish the facility.

The amendment would give a legal basis for a permanent mechanism to resolve euro debt crises.

European officials believe the revision will not transfer new powers to the EU and, therefore, may not necessitate another European referendum in Ireland.
If the member states give the EU more power, that is a transfer of competence.

Simple change proposed to treaty text over euro


Simple it ain't.
 

droghedasouth

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There is a hint of whistling past the graveyard in this report:



If the member states give the EU more power, that is a transfer of competence.

Simple change proposed to treaty text over euro


Simple it ain't.
Cowen and fellow clowns have no competence that could be transferred.

Seriously, your statement is a nonsense.
The use of the simplified revision method within Lisbon is restricted to changes within existing EU competences.
 

Berty

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Arthur Beesley:

EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS have reached a broad consensus on a narrow change to the Lisbon Treaty ahead of a key summit next week. They believe the revision will not transfer new powers to the EU and, therefore, may not necessitate another European referendum in Ireland. [...]

Although political haggling over the final text of the amendment continues, a diplomatic source said EU governments have reached agreement to make use of a simplified revision procedure in the Lisbon pact which would avoid the need to convene a constitutional convention.

While Dublin’s approach in the talks was to maximise the possibility of avoiding another EU vote, European diplomats believe a limited treaty change may not necessitate a referendum in Ireland.



EU summit set to back treaty change on bailouts - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 09, 2010

Imagine that.
European Diplomats???

In Crotty v An Taoiseach, Hederman J said

"105. It appears to me that the essential point at issue is whether the State can by any act on the part of its various organs of government enter into binding agreements with other states, or groups of states, to subordinate, or to submit, the exercise of the powers bestowed by the Constitution to the advice or interests of other states, as distinct from electing from time to time to pursue its own particular policies in union or in concert with other states in their pursuit of their own similar or even identical policies.

106. The State's organs cannot contract to exercise in a particular procedure their policy-making roles or in any way to fetter powers bestowed unfettered by the Constitution. They are the guardians of these powers -not the disposers of them. For the reasons already stated I would allow the appeal. "

No matter what these Diplomat clowns may think, it might still need to go to a referendum.
 

cul de sac

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Whatever it is we're gonna shoot it down. We need to remind Frau Merkel nothing is without cost. European solidarity is dead, dead, dead...
 

He3

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There is a hint of whistling past the graveyard in this report:

THE DRAFT text of the EU treaty amendment on the permanent crisis mechanism for the euro is a simple two-sentence statement that gives euro zone states the power to establish the facility.

The amendment would give a legal basis for a permanent mechanism to resolve euro debt crises.

European officials believe the revision will not transfer new powers to the EU and, therefore, may not necessitate another European referendum in Ireland.
If the member states give the EU more power, that is a transfer of competence.

Simple change proposed to treaty text over euro


Simple it ain't.
Cowen and fellow clowns have no competence that could be transferred.
Though they may think they are Ireland, they are not. You should know better droghedasouth.
Seriously, your statement is a nonsense.
The use of the simplified revision method within Lisbon is restricted to changes within existing EU competences.
There is nothing simple about what is proposed, except this: if the EU had the power at present, it would not need to amend the treaty.

Ergo, it does not have the power at present.

Who is giving it the power?

The member states, by amending the treaty.

That is as simple as it gets.

Everything beyond that is murky.
 

setanta

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The usual ignorance of europhobes is back on display. Might just be worth them re-reading the Lisbon Treaty, especially Article 48. Maybe just maybe we'd then have a thread on the EU informed by fact and reason and not the sort of nonsense that passes for comment from the likes of He3 and others.

Here's an idea ... if the Irish government, acting in acccodance with constiutional requirements (remember that phrase, its repeated in Article 48), endorses this change to the treaty then quit whinging and pop of to the High Court to challenge it. Better still, pop off now and seek an injunction restraining the government from agreeing a treaty change withour a referendum. In short, p1ss or get off the pot.

But you won't, will you? And you wonder why this sort of faux-legal whinging is treated with derision.
 

He3

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The usual ignorance of europhobes is back on display. Might ust be worth re-readign the Lsibon Treaty, especially Article 48. Maybe just maybe we'd have a thread on teh EUinformed by fact ad reason andnot the sort of nonsense that passes from comment from teh likes of He3 and others.

Here's an idea ... if the Irish government, acting in acccodance with constiutional requirements (remember that phrase its repeated in Article 48), endorses this change to the treaty then quit whinging and pop of to the High Court to challenge it. Better still, pop off now and seek an injunction restraining the government from agreeing a treaty change withour a referendum. In short, p1ss or get off the pot.

But you won't, will you? And you wonder why this sort of faux-legal whinging is treated with derision.
Welcome back Setanta - if you weren't around, the derision quota would barely register on the monitor.
 

Clanrickard

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Though they may think they are Ireland, they are not. You should know better droghedasouth.


There is nothing simple about what is proposed, except this: if the EU had the power at present, it would not need to amend the treaty.

Ergo, it does not have the power at present.

Who is giving it the power?

The member states, by amending the treaty.

That is as simple as it gets.

Everything beyond that is murky.
*sigh* Yes it was all so predictable.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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..... and where is the democracy in all of this ?
 

Tea Party Patriot

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I'd say even if the EU tried to bring in a treaty amendment giving everyone in Ireland a free Sun holiday it would be voted down right now such is the level of rage towards the robbery the ECB and European Banks (the senior bondholders we hear so much about) right now.
 

kaneman

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The usual ignorance of europhobes is back on display. Might just be worth them re-reading the Lisbon Treaty, especially Article 48. Maybe just maybe we'd then have a thread on the EU informed by fact and reason and not the sort of nonsense that passes for comment from the likes of He3 and others.

Here's an idea ... if the Irish government, acting in acccodance with constiutional requirements (remember that phrase, its repeated in Article 48), endorses this change to the treaty then quit whinging and pop of to the High Court to challenge it. Better still, pop off now and seek an injunction restraining the government from agreeing a treaty change withour a referendum. In short, p1ss or get off the pot.

But you won't, will you? And you wonder why this sort of faux-legal whinging is treated with derision.
If the Lisbon Treaty agreement Is changed by one letter we must have a new referendum. What's the point to having legally binding agreements If It can be changed without consulting the Irish people.
 

He3

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If the Lisbon Treaty agreement Is changed by one letter we must have a new referendum. What's the point to having legally binding agreements If It can be changed without consulting the Irish people.
The draft text of the amendment to the treaty, according to the IT:

“Member states whose currency is the euro may establish amongst themselves a stability mechanism to safeguard the stability of the euro area as a whole. The granting of financial assistance under the mechanism will be made subject to strict conditions.”
 

setanta

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If the Lisbon Treaty agreement Is changed by one letter we must have a new referendum. What's the point to having legally binding agreements If It can be changed without consulting the Irish people.
I woud refer you to the famous Crotty Judgement, This describes the circumstances in which a European treaty or treaty amendment must be submitted to the people of Ireland in a referendum. Such circumstances do not include treaties (such as accession treaties) or treaty amendments (such as that proposed) whch do not confer additional "competences" on the EU not otherwise provided for in existing treaties.

Under our constitution, very few "legally binding [international] agreements" are submitted to the people by way of referendum. The Oireachtas has sufficient powers under our constitution to make or vary such agreements itself. This is pretty basic constitutional law, kaneman.
 

sport02

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I say get Sinn Fein onto the case, after their DSW case in the high court, and their letter to goverment regarding the memerandum of understanding concerning the bailout, I am sure their legal team can find something unconstitutional about this Lisbon amendment.
 

kaneman

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I woud refer you to the famous Crotty Judgement, This describes the circumstances in which a European treaty or treaty amendment must be submitted to the people of Ireland in a referendum. Such circumstances do not include treaties (such as accession treaties) or treaty amendments (such as that proposed) whch do not confer additional "competences" on the EU not otherwise provided for in existing treaties.

Under our constitution, very few "legally binding [international] agreements" are submitted to the people by way of referendum. The Oireachtas has sufficient powers under our constitution to make or vary such agreements itself. This is pretty basic constitutional law, kaneman.
Thank you for the lesson In constitutional law.But It sends a chill down my spine that the oireachtas would make any decisions on behalf of the Irish nation when you reflect on decisions made In the last 2 years which have resulted In the country been left on It's back financially..
 

turdsl

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The usual ignorance of europhobes is back on display. Might just be worth them re-reading the Lisbon Treaty, especially Article 48. Maybe just maybe we'd then have a thread on the EU informed by fact and reason and not the sort of nonsense that passes for comment from the likes of He3 and others.

Here's an idea ... if the Irish government, acting in acccodance with constiutional requirements (remember that phrase, its repeated in Article 48), endorses this change to the treaty then quit whinging and pop of to the High Court to challenge it. Better still, pop off now and seek an injunction restraining the government from agreeing a treaty change withour a referendum. In short, p1ss or get off the pot.

But you won't, will you? And you wonder why this sort of faux-legal whinging is treated with derision.

I have little interest, It would not surprise me if somone does do that, maybe seeing our new bosses are over there now, they might try and take advantage.,
 

setanta

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Thank you for the lesson In constitutional law.But It sends a chill down my spine that the oireachtas would make any decisions on behalf of the Irish nation when you reflect on decisions made In the last 2 years which have resulted In the country been left on It's back financially..
Well that may well be how you feel, but that's an argument for abolishing the Oireachtas and representative democacy in Ireland altogether. In the final analysis the constitution places the authority to make or amend international agreements squarely with the Oireachtas, except as provided for in Crotty. The proposed amendments do not meet the Crotty criteria and are therefore ratifiable by the Oireachtas.
 


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