Lisbon Treaty - a source of instability?

This Country

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Much has been said about the uncertainty caused by Brexit. However, the reason for this uncertainty is not that the British electorate voted to leave the EU, it is the mechanism laid down by the Lisbon Treaty. Bilateral negotiation is by its very nature a cause of uncertainty as the results of such negotiations are hard to predict.

Famously, the content of the Lisbon Treaty was rejected by the French, Dutch and Irish electorates. In hindsight, does anyone think that the scrutiny provided by these votes should have been taken more seriously, and not ignored by the EU or dismissed populist?
 


ger12

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Nah.

If anything, Brexit and the resulting visible panic in the UK has strengthened pro EU views among remaining member countries I suspect.
 

jmcc

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The Irish people voted against Lisbon. Bought off traitors and quislings gave into the EU and betrayed the Irish people.
 

Tribal

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My memory of posters from the first vote was that it would mean abortion on demand. In the second vote it meant baby would be chipped. All said poster campaigned were funded by dubious sources, some tracked back to euroskeptic doners in the UK.

I'd be more interested in how much interference these nefarious funders had in all Irish EU referendums and whether they now pay people to post attacks against the EU on Irish internet forums.
 

This Country

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My point is that a clearer path to exiting the EU would dispense with much of the uncertainty caused by Brexit. If the Lisbon Treaty was given more scrutiny as it was being ratified, a lot of the current uncertainty could have been avoided.

As an aside, if the concerns of the French, Dutch and Irish voters were taken into account and the Lisbon Treaty subsequently revised, the EU that was the subject of the UK's 2016 referendum would have been a completely different animal, one more in tune with the electorates of those countries, and therefore the likelihood of a Leave vote would have been much less. Taking it on step further, if Lisbon had been negotiated by Gordon Brown in the knowledge that he would have to get it past a referendum, the resultant EU would be one that was in tune with British public opinion. By denying the British a vote on This EU / That EU, Brown left the door open to a vote on This EU / No EU, and the 'This EU' being voted on was one that had become divergent with British public opinion.
 

This Country

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My memory of posters from the first vote was that it would mean abortion on demand.
I seem to recall a focus on a common EU army and a common corporate tax base. The former was announced by Junker shortly after the Brexit vote and the latter is under threat from the current Competition Commissioner.

In the second vote it meant baby would be chipped.
Not sure what this means

All said poster campaigned were funded by dubious sources, some tracked back to euroskeptic doners in the UK.
Sounds like an ad hominem argument to me. The arguments put by either side should be engaged with on their merits, regardless of who advocates them.

I'd be more interested in how much interference these nefarious funders had in all Irish EU referendums and whether they now pay people to post attacks against the EU on Irish internet forums.
Certainly doesn't apply to this poster.
 

Half Nelson

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The Irish people voted against Lisbon. Bought off traitors and quislings gave into the EU and betrayed the Irish people.
The initial rejection of the Irish vote contributed to Brexit.
Irony, eh!
 

NAPBAR

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Much has been said about the uncertainty caused by Brexit. However, the reason for this uncertainty is not that the British electorate voted to leave the EU, it is the mechanism laid down by the Lisbon Treaty. Bilateral negotiation is by its very nature a cause of uncertainty as the results of such negotiations are hard to predict.

Famously, the content of the Lisbon Treaty was rejected by the French, Dutch and Irish electorates. In hindsight, does anyone think that the scrutiny provided by these votes should have been taken more seriously, and not ignored by the EU or dismissed populist?
Of course not. The EUs response was to get the King of Ambiguity to draw up changes to the EU Constitution as it was once called. Bertie decided to change the word Constitution to Treaty to make it more pallitable. Bertie made sure it meant all things to all men and that every argument could be accepted and ridiculed all at the same time, while all the time legally binding you to a EU Constitution.

The eejits that changed their minds are to blame. This place is full of them.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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The Lisbon treaty was rape.
 

Tribal

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My point is that a clearer path to exiting the EU would dispense with much of the uncertainty caused by Brexit. If the Lisbon Treaty was given more scrutiny as it was being ratified, a lot of the current uncertainty could have been avoided.

As an aside, if the concerns of the French, Dutch and Irish voters were taken into account and the Lisbon Treaty subsequently revised, the EU that was the subject of the UK's 2016 referendum would have been a completely different animal, one more in tune with the electorates of those countries, and therefore the likelihood of a Leave vote would have been much less. Taking it on step further, if Lisbon had been negotiated by Gordon Brown in the knowledge that he would have to get it past a referendum, the resultant EU would be one that was in tune with British public opinion. By denying the British a vote on This EU / That EU, Brown left the door open to a vote on This EU / No EU, and the 'This EU' being voted on was one that had become divergent with British public opinion.
So essentially what you're trying to establish is that it is somehow our fault that the UK is unprepared to undertake an action that it voted to pursue.

Do you think we should wipe their bums for them too?
 

LISTOWEL MAN

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i remember one of the Lisbon ads said .. IF YOU WANT TO STAY NEUTRAL vote YES

since then we helped the good old U.S. murder women and children abroad
 

Dame_Enda

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Article 50 was part of the treaty.

One very annoying aspect of the treatys aftermath has been the Commissions stubborn refusal to allow the Enhanced Cooperation provisions on a multispeed Europe to be used. They say such stuff is essential then leave them dormant.

They are flouting the spirit of the recommendations in the Convention on the Future of Europe chaired by Giscard dEstaing, including a multispeed Europe to cater for different national positions on integration. The urge by some members to punish the UK violates GDs express view at the time of the Convention in 2000 when he said 'the EU should not be a prison'.

Indeed I would argue that had the EU commission and member states allowed wider use of Enhanced Cooperation the UK might not have voted to leave.
 
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Tribal

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Indeed I would argue that had the EU commission and member states allowed wider use of Enhanced Cooperation the UK might not have voted to leave.
The number one reason repeatedly cited for Brexit passing has been emigration.

The UK could have used the same restrictions that France and Germany did in the years after 2004 but chose not to. France and Germany were berated by the UK as being anti-EU for restricting that freedom of movement!

After a decade of UK wage stagnation all that's forgotten and now we in the EU are being berated for the same freedom of movement UK politicians mismanaged.

The greatest irony of A50 is that it was the Brits who insisted on it and that the wording for the exit procedure be iron clad so that there could be no backsliding.

I can not understand why any Irish person would seek to make excuses for a nation so ready to undermine the Good Friday Agreement.
 

Congalltee

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Nah.

If anything, Brexit and the resulting visible panic in the UK has strengthened pro EU views among remaining member countries I suspect.
There are now 3 speed europe:
Inner: Macron's france, Merkel' Germany, belgium, Luxembourg, renzi's Italy
Middling: Ireland, Malta, Spain, Portugal, Dutch, Slovaks, Slovenia, Baltics, the rest
Outwardly hostile: UK, Le pens france, Poland, Hungary, Czech

Macrons latest was to have a parliament for the eurozone countries. Which is worst of all worlds - more integration, more politicians, paddies being outvoted.

There should be no further integration. Turkey talks should be stopped while erodgan is in power. Poles should be dragged over the coals in ecj for breaching rule of law. Stabilise the eurozone. Get debt to manageable levels. Migration crisis solutions.
Brexit and further integration is very unhelpful in that context.
 
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Spanner Island

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The Irish people voted against Lisbon. Bought off traitors and quislings gave into the EU and betrayed the Irish people.
Wrong.

Those Irish who voted rejected the initial offering.

Various amendments were subsequently made in relation to various issues after which those Irish who then voted accepted the 'deal' that was presented to them.

You may not be happy about that. I wasn't particularly thrilled about it myself... but don't indulge in lies and bullsh!t about what actually happened.
 

razorblade

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It was this treaty and the anti democratic contempt shown to the Irish electorate that made up my mind about the EU once and for all.
 


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