Macron and the future of Europe

Kevin Parlon

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I was struck by some things I read recently written about Macron's most recent comments on Europe. He had declared, in distinctly Ombaian soaring rhetoric that Europe's elites needed to "give Europe back to its peoples" and that Europeans had "lost their objectives and become complacent and comfortable". The project of "giving Europe back to its peoples" means "centralising Immigration, Defence and Taxation in Brussels"

Now, first of all, this strikes me as tone deaf, and as something that could only emenate from Europe's cosseted, protected and isolated elite.

Who, among the average European would pick "comfortable and complacent" about the changes in our continent over the past decade and what number would regard further concentrating the powers of the military, immigration and taxation in Brussels as being an act describable as "giving Europe back to its peoples". It's not almost Orwellian; it is positively Orwellian.

President Emmanuel Macron Sets Out Plan for European Union | Time.com
France's Macron Calls For A United Europe, Greater Cooperation With Germany : Parallels : NPR


I'm a person born in the 70's. Close enough to Ireland's mid-century disfunction to yearn for example outside of Ireland. I thought (in my 20's) that the EU was that answer. I wonder if my disillusion with Europe is widespread.

I know many conservatives would agree with me now, but I am curious as to the numbers of those, who in the 90's and early noughties regarded themselves as ardent Europhiles now think differently.
 


mr_anderson

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I know many conservatives would agree with me now, but I am curious as to the numbers of those, who in the 90's and early noughties regarded themselves as ardent Europhiles now think differently.

Count me in that.
I was one of those who gave them an inch and they've gone a mile.
Enough.
 

General Urko

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Essentially the solution to the Gravy Train Shytebags getting the biggest and most well deserved kick up the hole they have ever got is to give us more of the problem -more Europe!

Well THe European Army will be useful in combating dissent in non compliant countries!
 

Spanner Island

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I was struck by some things I read recently written about Macron's most recent comments on Europe. He had declared, in distinctly Ombaian soaring rhetoric that Europe's elites needed to "give Europe back to its peoples" and that Europeans had "lost their objectives and become complacent and comfortable". The project of "giving Europe back to its peoples" means "centralising Immigration, Defence and Taxation in Brussels"

Now, first of all, this strikes me as tone deaf, and as something that could only emenate from Europe's cosseted, protected and isolated elite.

Who, among the average European would pick "comfortable and complacent" about the changes in our continent over the past decade and what number would regard further concentrating the powers of the military, immigration and taxation in Brussels as being an act describable as "giving Europe back to its peoples". It's not almost Orwellian; it is positively Orwellian.

President Emmanuel Macron Sets Out Plan for European Union | Time.com
France's Macron Calls For A United Europe, Greater Cooperation With Germany : Parallels : NPR


I'm a person born in the 70's. Close enough to Ireland's mid-century disfunction to yearn for example outside of Ireland. I thought (in my 20's) that the EU was that answer. I wonder if my disillusion with Europe is widespread.

I know many conservatives would agree with me now, but I am curious as to the numbers of those, who in the 90's and early noughties regarded themselves as ardent Europhiles now think differently.
I'd be one of them but I realise we're between a rock and a hard place regarding Europe.

Our economy has been developed largely on the presumption that our Corp Tax rate is stable and that we're full enthusiastic participants of the EU.

200K direct jobs and 300K indirect jobs are dependent on MNC activity here and I simply do not buy the suggestion by many that Ireland could leave the EU and thrive... on the contrary we'd set ourselves back decades...

And I don't want us to come under the UK sphere of influence again either.

I don't think Macron's 'vision' is a goer though... and I reckon the more we hear of this relentless pursuit of 'more Europe' the more various member states are going to kick back.

I don't know what the solution for Ireland is but it's neither 'more Europe' nor 'quitting Europe' either.

On the plus side Lara Marlowe said Macron's speech was very emotional and visionary... which is nice...
 
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I was struck by some things I read recently written about Macron's most recent comments on Europe. He had declared, in distinctly Ombaian soaring rhetoric that Europe's elites needed to "give Europe back to its peoples" and that Europeans had "lost their objectives and become complacent and comfortable". The project of "giving Europe back to its peoples" means "centralising Immigration, Defence and Taxation in Brussels"

Now, first of all, this strikes me as tone deaf, and as something that could only emenate from Europe's cosseted, protected and isolated elite.

Who, among the average European would pick "comfortable and complacent" about the changes in our continent over the past decade and what number would regard further concentrating the powers of the military, immigration and taxation in Brussels as being an act describable as "giving Europe back to its peoples". It's not almost Orwellian; it is positively Orwellian.

President Emmanuel Macron Sets Out Plan for European Union | Time.com
France's Macron Calls For A United Europe, Greater Cooperation With Germany : Parallels : NPR


I'm a person born in the 70's. Close enough to Ireland's mid-century disfunction to yearn for example outside of Ireland. I thought (in my 20's) that the EU was that answer. I wonder if my disillusion with Europe is widespread.

I know many conservatives would agree with me now, but I am curious as to the numbers of those, who in the 90's and early noughties regarded themselves as ardent Europhiles now think differently.
I think that what he was doing was circumscribing the EU's role to those three functions, i.e., saying that it must take a much less interventionist role in all other areas. That is the gist of what I read and heard from him the French media.

This could lead to an interesting conundrum; what of Brexit if the EU announced reform of the type that the UK sought? What if the UK was left looking through the window at member countries enjoying the type of sovereignty that they themselves had sought?

There should be room in all of this for a major reboot. Both sides step away from the precipice and cool off while they develop new stances. If agreeable to all concerned then proceed to implementation Win-win and treble brandies all around. Hell, the Brexiteers even get to claim that they managed to force fundamental change of the EU. I was an avid Remainer and still am, but the UK's demands for reform were justified and some concessions should have been made. Cameron should have been given a bone to present to his people.

That opportunity is lost, or is it?
 

Spanner Island

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I think that what he was doing was circumscribing the EU's role to those three functions, i.e., saying that it must take a much less interventionist role in all other areas. That is the gist of what I read and heard from him the French media.

This could lead to an interesting conundrum; what of Brexit if the EU announced reform of the type that the UK sought? What if the UK was left looking through the window at member countries enjoying the type of sovereignty that they themselves had sought?

There should be room in all of this for a major reboot. Both sides step away from the precipice and cool off while they develop new stances. If agreeable to all concerned then proceed to implementation Win-win and treble brandies all around. Hell, the Brexiteers even get to claim that they managed to force fundamental change of the EU. I was an avid Remainer and still am, but the UK's demands for reform were justified and some concessions should have been made. Cameron should have been given a bone to present to his people.

That opportunity is lost, or is it?
He should have... but I honestly believe there would have been nothing he could have returned with that would have placated the Brexiteers...

They had him over a barrel and they wanted a referendum regardless...

Cameron allowed himself to be put over a barrel however... and he was spooked by the rise of UKIP too...

And the UK was long overdue a referendum on Europe... which they got, which was handled abysmally throughout and the rest is history...
 
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mr_anderson

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I think that what he was doing was circumscribing the EU's role to those three functions, i.e., saying that it must take a much less interventionist role in all other areas. That is the gist of what I read and heard from him the French media.

This could lead to an interesting conundrum; what of Brexit if the EU announced reform of the type that the UK sought? What if the UK was left looking through the window at member countries enjoying the type of sovereignty that they themselves had sought?

There should be room in all of this for a major reboot. Both sides step away from the precipice and cool off while they develop new stances. If agreeable to all concerned then proceed to implementation Win-win and treble brandies all around. Hell, the Brexiteers even get to claim that they managed to force fundamental change of the EU. I was an avid Remainer and still am, but the UK's demands for reform were justified and some concessions should have been made. Cameron should have been given a bone to present to his people.

That opportunity is lost, or is it?

The problem lies with the EU rather than Britain.
It is the former, moreso than the latter, that needs to change.
The 'problem' wasn't that Britain voted for Brexit, it was that they were given the chance to vote on it.
If you ran the same referendum in every EU country, I think everyone here would agree Britain wouldn't be on it's own.
Hence such referendums are purposely denied.

The politicians were raging about Brexit.
But the average European understood it.
That's where the problem lies.
 

Kevin Parlon

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I think that what he was doing was circumscribing the EU's role to those three functions, i.e., saying that it must take a much less interventionist role in all other areas. That is the gist of what I read and heard from him the French media.

This could lead to an interesting conundrum; what of Brexit if the EU announced reform of the type that the UK sought? What if the UK was left looking through the window at member countries enjoying the type of sovereignty that they themselves had sought?

There should be room in all of this for a major reboot. Both sides step away from the precipice and cool off while they develop new stances. If agreeable to all concerned then proceed to implementation Win-win and treble brandies all around. Hell, the Brexiteers even get to claim that they managed to force fundamental change of the EU. I was an avid Remainer and still am, but the UK's demands for reform were justified and some concessions should have been made. Cameron should have been given a bone to present to his people.

That opportunity is lost, or is it?
Thanks Des. I have to say though that the word "circumscribe" (to contain, define boundaries for) in conjunction with the idea of remote and unaccountable power in Brussels doesn't fit with the idea of jettisoning migration, military and tax control to that same unaccountable and widely hated body. Weirdly, Macron seems to place his finger on European discontent (Great!), but then doubles back and recommends even more consolidation of power in Brussels as the cure (What?!). Have I read you wrong?
 
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The problem lies with the EU rather than Britain.
It is the former, moreso than the latter, that needs to change.
The 'problem' wasn't that Britain voted for Brexit, it was that they were given the chance to vote on it.
If you ran the same referendum in every EU country, I think everyone here would agree Britain wouldn't be on it's own.
Hence such referendums are purposely denied.

The politicians were raging about Brexit.
But the average European understood it.
That's where the problem lies.
Id like links to polls that show such an appetite for leaving the EU exists. Which countries would vote leave? Remember that the member countries can se what is happening to the UK. They have all the time in the world to assess whether the UK decision was a good one. The only logical position to adopt if presented with such a ballot would be "No. Ask me again in a decade".

Le Pen's attitude regarding leaving the EU is reckoned to have been one of the major tactical failures which cost her the election. There is no way Germany wants out and nor, incidentally, does Ireland.
 

Kevin Parlon

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And the UK was long overdue a referendum on Europe... which they got one which was handled abysmally
I could't agree more.


throughout and the rest is history...
It is. I still think the Euro "elites" (I hate the term, but if there is a better one to describe those who live their lives in orbit of Brussels, please educate me) still don't quite understand why Britain voted to go. They voted to go because:

a) The gross democratic deficit that EU rule represents and is openly committed to increasing
b) the loss of sovereignty that goes with that and
c) the utterly mad project which regards national identity as some sort of original sin that requires expunging.
 

General Urko

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I could't agree more.




It is. I still think the Euro "elites" (I hate the term, but if there is a better one to describe those who live their lives in orbit of Brussels, please educate me) still don't quite understand why Britain voted to go. They voted to go because:

a) The gross democratic deficit that EU rule represents and is openly committed to increasing
b) the loss of sovereignty that goes with that and
c) the utterly mad project which regards national identity as some sort of original sin that requires expunging.
Euro Elites = Gravy Train Gobshytes!
And their solution is to drive the train faster!
I have heard that outside one prominent EU Building - Parliament/Commission there is a plaque telling the world that the greatest evil is nationalism which is extraordinarily rich considering that The EU is made up of all The Massive Imperialist Scum of the past save Russian, China and The United States!
 

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I don't see any type of future worth having in Western Europe. I have been nagging my husband to get him to start thinking about moving to Russia, he said that he will start considering it if the abortion referendum goes the way of globalists (not his phrase). So I have stopped nagging for the moment.
 

mr_anderson

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Id like links to polls that show such an appetite for leaving the EU exists. Which countries would vote leave? Remember that the member countries can se what is happening to the UK. They have all the time in the world to assess whether the UK decision was a good one. The only logical position to adopt if presented with such a ballot would be "No. Ask me again in a decade".

Le Pen's attitude regarding leaving the EU is reckoned to have been one of the major tactical failures which cost her the election. There is no way Germany wants out and nor, incidentally, does Ireland.
I'm on my phone at the moment, so not going to trawl through newspaper cutting yet.
But the fact you outlined how the UK is currently being treated as reason for people to vote to stay in is only confirming my point - obedience through fear.
 
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Thanks Des. I have to say though that the word "circumscribe" (to contain, define boundaries for) in conjunction with the idea of remote and unaccountable power in Brussels doesn't fit with the idea of jettisoning migration, military and tax control to that same unaccountable and widely hated body. Weirdly, Macron seems to place his finger on European discontent (Great!), but then doubles back and recommends even more consolidation of power in Brussels as the cure (What?!). Have I read you wrong?
Well, listening to him last night he appears to be talking more about harmonization in these areas than about hard and fast imposition from Brussels. He's definitely bent on restricting the powers of Brussels in many areas.
 
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I'm on my phone at the moment, so not going to trawl through newspaper cutting yet.
But the fact you outlined how the UK is currently being treated as reason for people to vote to stay in is only confirming my point - obedience through fear.
Not so. I think that a prudent strategy is to wait to see if the water really is warm. It is also an opportunity to learn from the UK's experience. Mistakes will definitely be made by the UK (and the EU!) and indeed many have already been made by both sides. Let the UK go, see how they fare and then use the escape tunnel they had dug. Or not.
 

Kevin Parlon

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Well, listening to him last night he appears to be talking more about harmonization in these areas than about hard and fast imposition from Brussels. He's definitely bent on restricting the powers of Brussels in many areas.
I missed that part; perhaps because of my bias. What parts was he looking to restrict?
 

Clanrickard

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Pooling sovereignty is a no brainer for a country liker Ireland and I am all for a federal structure but only where there will be something like the US Senate that protects smaller nations and the rules are applied equally to all not as now where France and Germany ride rough shod over the rules. Structures need to be put in place to resist dirigiste instincts especially in Paris.
 
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I missed that part; perhaps because of my bias. What parts was he looking to restrict?
Prett much everything that falls within those three specific areas. Nor is it restriction as such; mainly that a common approach can be found which respects local conditions.

He knows that harmonisation is not absolutely feasible in the sense that different countries have different economic models and different stratification of society. However, he is seized with the company tax for one along with where other taxes fall liable.
 

randomwalk

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Id like links to polls that show such an appetite for leaving the EU exists. Which countries would vote leave?
To be fair, I have a distinct (am I imagining things?) memory of reading an article in the FT around the time of Brexit that stated the median percentage of people wanting to stay in the EU was 51% across the union. I can't seem to find this, but it is possible such polls are floating around, especially in certain newspapers.. Of course, there is no real validity to such a claim, as indicated by pretty much every bit of Research I have come across.

Sharp increase in favorability of EU in many countries in last year | Pew Research Center
 

Man or Mouse

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I was struck by some things I read recently written about Macron's most recent comments on Europe. He had declared, in distinctly Ombaian soaring rhetoric that Europe's elites needed to "give Europe back to its peoples" and that Europeans had "lost their objectives and become complacent and comfortable". The project of "giving Europe back to its peoples" means "centralising Immigration, Defence and Taxation in Brussels"

Now, first of all, this strikes me as tone deaf, and as something that could only emenate from Europe's cosseted, protected and isolated elite.

Who, among the average European would pick "comfortable and complacent" about the changes in our continent over the past decade and what number would regard further concentrating the powers of the military, immigration and taxation in Brussels as being an act describable as "giving Europe back to its peoples". It's not almost Orwellian; it is positively Orwellian.

President Emmanuel Macron Sets Out Plan for European Union | Time.com
France's Macron Calls For A United Europe, Greater Cooperation With Germany : Parallels : NPR


I'm a person born in the 70's. Close enough to Ireland's mid-century disfunction to yearn for example outside of Ireland. I thought (in my 20's) that the EU was that answer. I wonder if my disillusion with Europe is widespread.

I know many conservatives would agree with me now, but I am curious as to the numbers of those, who in the 90's and early noughties regarded themselves as ardent Europhiles now think differently.
Regarding the bold bit, I am quite the opposite in that regard. I was quite a Euro sceptic in that period when something could have been done about altering structures and so forth, but as that battle is lost and not in a good way either, am now inclined more towards the total integration that Macron speaks of, which is about as opposite as one can be in regard to your curiosities. I voted "no" in two referendums and we had to go and do it all again and change those results. Not very democratic. I don't see much of that happening across the pond from us, even though the body politic there realise it is a dreadful mistake as a result of a silly referendum that has them Brexiting. In the same way, the die is now cast as to how Europe will go in the future, particularly with "Them" out.

We are deluding ourselves if we think we have options to stay outside if integration goes ahead. So, why not take the initiative while we can and get maximum value from our existing positions, agreed compensation levels in advance for tax base lost through integration etc etc. This would be the opposite of what we did going in, in the first instance, with our fisheries for instance.

I could go on at some length on the advantages that could possibly accrue. However, the one that would sell it to me bigly, is that our government would be reduced to the status of a state legislature and be greatly reduced in numbers, the only status it is fit for. Mind you, a county council would be better still.

There was a thread earlier in the year about feeling European, in which I gave my two cents worth in the affirmative. This was as a result of spending time in the heart of Europe prior to that. In contacts with people of all nationalities, there was a great sense of all being one, among ordinary run of the mill people. This was in stark contrast to the various Brightons-on-The-Costas I had visited from time to time previously, which don't really feel European at all, apart from the weather. Those were not my sole continental experiences let me emphasise. I did a fair bit of business in Northern Europe too and travelled extensively in support of my favourite rugby team. On arriving in one French city for the second time on such a trip, I found a flyer in the hotel lobby that included a message from the mayor extending the céad míle fáilte to the team and fans. That felt warming. I know it's only sport, but, through such channels are impressions made and contacts formed.

I do believe we have a future together. Let's not ape the Brits.
 


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