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Mahon Tribunal

Abbeyville

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Jun 13, 2007
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33
Due to the recent negotiations on forming the new government over the past week some information given to the Mahon Tribunal may have been missed.
Dr. John O' Mahony SC for Minister Micheal Martin insisted on reading into the record a statement given to the tribunal by Mr. Martin in which he said he had recieved £6200 from Owen O' Callaghan in political donations between 1989 and 1993 and that £3500 of that had been lodged into his wife's account.
 


Limerick Lad

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Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
4,596
Abbeyville said:
Due to the recent negotiations on forming the new government over the past week some information given to the Mahon Tribunal may have been missed.
Dr. John O' Mahony SC for Minister Micheal Martin insisted on reading into the record a statement given to the tribunal by Mr. Martin in which he said he had received £6200 from Owen O' Callaghan in political donations between 1989 and 1993 and that £3500 of that had been lodged into his wife's account.
Yet another FF TD whose "political" donations ended up in the personal bank accounts of their wife/partner, strange world we live in!
 

loner

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Jan 9, 2005
Messages
8,085
Interesting but does it matter who cares in this country maybe his wife was the local cumann secretary
 

Leftfemme22

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Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
 

DSCH

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Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
246
Leftfemme22 said:
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
Another one of these "laughing stock of Europe (TM)" posts.
 

adrem

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Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
924
What am I missing here? It was a political donation to M Martin so there's no problem with it going into his or his wife's account.

I think your mixing it up with previous issues whereby political donations meant for the FF party ended up in members accounts.

There's no allegation that M Martin wasn't supposed to keep the money for defrayment of his own election expenses.

Of more interest (IMHO) is the continuing reduction in credibility of Gilmartin. When we take into account that he's being hand-held through his evidence by the tribunal and not being cross-examined it's remarkable that he's already had to rescind 2 allegations.

Overall though - I think the biggest joke of this is the fact that we are spending millions listening to a man tell us his recollections of what his rival allegedly said to him about bribing politicians during a period when he and his rival were involved in a massive multi-million pound battle which he lost ! It's all by definition heresay and biaised (due to his clear anger over losing to O'Callaghan). None of this would be acceptable in a court. Even with that proviso his "evidence" doesn't stack up - for example when he says he was at loggerheads with O'Callaghan there are contemporaneous notes showing they were amicably doing business and didn't fall out until later, when he says on the one hand he trusted Bertie as being above corruption (and therefore asked for his help and got it) then subsequently alleges that O'Callaghan had been bribing Bertie and that Gilmartin knew about that at the time he was asking Bertie for help.

This is a crock and will ultimately serve only one purpose - to pay for more holiday homes for the barristers and judges.

And No - I am not for a second suggesting that we shouldn't know about whether Bertie and/or others were in receipt of corrupt payments - it's just this module is a load of crap !
 

Leftfemme22

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
DSCH said:
Leftfemme22 said:
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
Another one of these "laughing stock of Europe (TM)" posts.
Your country is fast becoming a joke... I cant count the amount of times I have been embarressed for this country when I'm back in London being quizzed as to what the hell I'm doing still living here. (2nd generation Irish, goes along way) But the days of people being envious of my life here are long over.

Nobody envies Ireland anymore, you have squandered your time in the sun
 

mollox

Active member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
202
jjcarroll said:
then subsequently alleges that O'Callaghan had been bribing Bertie
Did he allege that, or did he allege that O'Callaghan was saying he was bribing Bertie?
This is a critical distinction to make - and one which seems to be routinely overlooked both in media reports and by outraged FF politicians in denying the allegation of allegations.

O'Callaghan was playing "development poker" with Gilmartin. It's entirely possible that O'Callaghan did make such claims to convince Gilmartin that his political influence was essential to any successful development outcome.

Whether O'Callaghan was actually bribing FF Ministers is entirely another matter. But from what we know of Haughey, Burke, Lawlor it would be foolish not to investigate such claims.

Messrs O'Callaghan, Ahern, Martin etc are entitled to have their reputations vindicated by the tribunal, who should look under every stone in their efforts to do so.
 

Abbeyville

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
33
adrem said:
What am I missing here? It was a political donation to M Martin so there's no problem with it going into his or his wife's account.

I think your mixing it up with previous issues whereby political donations meant for the FF party ended up in members accounts.

There's no allegation that M Martin wasn't supposed to keep the money for defrayment of his own election expenses.

Of more interest (IMHO) is the continuing reduction in credibility of Gilmartin. When we take into account that he's being hand-held through his evidence by the tribunal and not being cross-examined it's remarkable that he's already had to rescind 2 allegations.

Overall though - I think the biggest joke of this is the fact that we are spending millions listening to a man tell us his recollections of what his rival allegedly said to him about bribing politicians during a period when he and his rival were involved in a massive multi-million pound battle which he lost ! It's all by definition heresay and biaised (due to his clear anger over losing to O'Callaghan). None of this would be acceptable in a court. Even with that proviso his "evidence" doesn't stack up - for example when he says he was at loggerheads with O'Callaghan there are contemporaneous notes showing they were amicably doing business and didn't fall out until later, when he says on the one hand he trusted Bertie as being above corruption (and therefore asked for his help and got it) then subsequently alleges that O'Callaghan had been bribing Bertie and that Gilmartin knew about that at the time he was asking Bertie for help.

This is a crock and will ultimately serve only one purpose - to pay for more holiday homes for the barristers and judges.

And No - I am not for a second suggesting that we shouldn't know about whether Bertie and/or others were in receipt of corrupt payments - it's just this module is a load of crap !
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
96
Leftfemme22 said:
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
Mind your own business. It is not for you to interfere in our internal affairs.
 

MuchToDo

Active member
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May 23, 2007
Messages
276
irishpeoplearewhingers said:
Mind your own business. It is not for you to interfere in our internal affairs.
Yes, that's a fantastic display of maturity...
 

rockyracoon

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Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
181
Leftfemme22 said:
Your country is fast becoming a joke... I cant count the amount of times I have been embarressed for this country when I'm back in London being quizzed as to what the hell I'm doing still living here. (2nd generation Irish, goes along way) But the days of people being envious of my life here are long over.

Nobody envies Ireland anymore, you have squandered your time in the sun
When I resided in the Isle of Man, an englishman slagged off the Irish government. Being a good Irishman, I asked him how f'ing good his government was. He then proceeded to tell me his sister lived in Dublin. She paid big income taxes. She paid for rubbish charges. She paid for parking. She paid tolls. She paid for health insurance. She paid for maintenance on common areas of her estate. She paid over the odds for groceries and clothes. Etc. For once, I had to swallow my pride and agree with him. It hurt.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
96
rockyracoon said:
Leftfemme22 said:
Your country is fast becoming a joke... I cant count the amount of times I have been embarressed for this country when I'm back in London being quizzed as to what the hell I'm doing still living here. (2nd generation Irish, goes along way) But the days of people being envious of my life here are long over.

Nobody envies Ireland anymore, you have squandered your time in the sun
When I resided in the Isle of Man, an englishman slagged off the Irish government. Being a good Irishman, I asked him how f'ing good his government was. He then proceeded to tell me his sister lived in Dublin. She paid big income taxes. She paid for rubbish charges. She paid for parking. She paid tolls. She paid for health insurance. She paid for maintenance on common areas of her estate. She paid over the odds for groceries and clothes. Etc. For once, I had to swallow my pride and agree with him. It hurt.
You should have asked him why Scottish people get better treatment than he does.
 

adrem

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Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
924
mollox said:
jjcarroll said:
then subsequently alleges that O'Callaghan had been bribing Bertie
Did he allege that, or did he allege that O'Callaghan was saying he was bribing Bertie?
This is a critical distinction to make - and one which seems to be routinely overlooked both in media reports and by outraged FF politicians in denying the allegation of allegations.

O'Callaghan was playing "development poker" with Gilmartin. It's entirely possible that O'Callaghan did make such claims to convince Gilmartin that his political influence was essential to any successful development outcome.

Whether O'Callaghan was actually bribing FF Ministers is entirely another matter. But from what we know of Haughey, Burke, Lawlor it would be foolish not to investigate such claims.

Messrs O'Callaghan, Ahern, Martin etc are entitled to have their reputations vindicated by the tribunal, who should look under every stone in their efforts to do so.
That's crap and what's more you know it - that's a mechanism to hide behind the allegations being made (and by the way read Gilmartin's testimony he is saying clearly that in some cases he told the tribunal what O'Callaghan told him and in other cases he told the tribunal of "what he surmised himself").

The tribunal is not vindicating Ahern, Martin et al - the tribunal is allowing a bitter, forgetful (by his own admission) and self contradicting man a platform to make public a series of un substantiated allegations - some his and some hearsay. It is a ridiculous waste of money - again I stress not the need to get to the truth but the mechanism that is being used here - it is simply paying lawyers millions as we learn F-all new info over 10 years + !
 

Akrasia

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Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
1,128
adrem said:
Of more interest (IMHO) is the continuing reduction in credibility of Gilmartin. When we take into account that he's being hand-held through his evidence by the tribunal and not being cross-examined it's remarkable that he's already had to rescind 2 allegations.
Which 2 allegations has he had to rescind?
So far, he has revised one of his statements regarding payments to Martin from 'a 6 figure sum' to a '5 figure sum' and he apologised for the mistake.

Many other of Gilmartins allegations were initially disregarded by FF types and then later vindicated as being correct.

A lot of the Pro FF posters here are accusing Gilmartin of making this stuff up as he goes along, but these allegations were submitted to the tribunal years ago as Mahon stated last week. Just because it's the first time we have heard them, doesn't mean it's the first time Gilmartin has made them.
 

Dasayev

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Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
2,811
Leftfemme22 said:
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
Britain helps America start an illegal war on Iraq

Tony Blair gets interviewed by Police over cash for honours

Britain stops investigation into BAE over 1 billion pound bribe to Bandar, when Saudi's demand it.



Ireland may not be perfect but nobody starves to death like under the glory days of British rule here.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
96
Dasayev said:
Leftfemme22 said:
Your 'little' country is fast becoming a serious source of ridicule in terms of its inherent corruption and the apathy shown by your electorate.

Ireland has perpretrated an enormous con on the world. Portraying a nation of hospitable generous people with a solid intelligence. Yet your electorate displays such startling stupidity at every turn, giving corruption a mandate and allowing vested interests to over ride good civic administration.

No other country in Europe allows its politicians to behave so overtly like gangsters.
No other country in Europe would have squandered the wealth created like children let loose in a sweet shop with a fist full of money.
No other country in Europe would have gotten such paltry and pathetic returns for the money put into the Public Services.
No other country in Europe would allow its Health Service to be hi-jacked by ideologues and run into the ground to facilitate a privatisation agenda.


Ireland has displayed its chronic immaturity in these matters.
Britain helps America start an illegal war on Iraq

Tony Blair gets interviewed by Police over cash for honours

Britain stops investigation into BAE over 1 billion pound bribe to Bandar, when Saudi's demand it.



Ireland may not be perfect but nobody starves to death like under the glory days of British rule here.
Yeah, the Brits can't throw stones at anyone about corruption or public services....their education system and the NHS are still in bits despite massive funding.....they are embroiled in two unwinnable wars......entire estates are now no go areas due to racial tension....the BNP are winning more and more seats......Scotland gets over 1000 sterling per head more than England in government funding....they have massive trade and budget deficits....houses are not what you would call cheap....their privatized rail system stinks......the Chinese took their car industry away....for God's sake, how can any Brit point fingers at us. Bottom line- look behind the rhetoric and you will see that all countreis have problems and nowhere is heaven: the Saudis have 20% unemployment, the USA is in tatters, China has more then 80,000 protests per year, Singapore's young people are running away....get the picture...ALL countries have problems but it does not make them bad countries and it does not justify the kind of patronizing supremacist interference that formed the basis of some posters' contributions.
Nowhere is perfect- get over it.
 

Libero

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Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
2,994
Discussion of how some countries are better/worse than others are off-topic.

adrem said:
The tribunal is not vindicating Ahern, Martin et al - the tribunal is allowing a bitter, forgetful (by his own admission) and self contradicting man a platform to make public a series of un substantiated allegations - some his and some hearsay. It is a ridiculous waste of money - again I stress not the need to get to the truth but the mechanism that is being used here - it is simply paying lawyers millions as we learn F-all new info over 10 years + !
Don't forget to blame the Oireachtas for instigating the whole thing.

My view is that Ahern and Co. agreed to the entire set-up. Unlike private citizens, they're not in a strong position to come whinging if they don't like how the structure works out in practice.

And if you're so terribly upset by things like delay and cost, and you say you are, then save your worst outrage for those who lied, failed to cooperate and launched legal actions against the Tribunals. They are clearly responsible for more expense and timewasting than the likes of Gilmartin.

P.S. What are your suggested alternative mechanisms?
 


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