Make the rich pay? Problems with tax increases.

Kevin Doyle

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oh dear
 


Kevin Doyle

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Bollox to that.

Extreme lefty policies can do as much damage to an economy as extreme right policies.
The marginal tax rate for earners above 36K is already 51% on taxable earnings, So if you earn between 36k-100K as a PAYE employee you might already be paying roughly that sum, although the higher up you get the more tax dodges available to you. But heres the rub, the effective average tax rate paid by those earning 100k plus (and theres over 80,000 of them) is 27%. That is wrong and needs to be addressed. Actually, it will be and no amount of voodoonomic trickle down effect mumbo jumbo is going to change that.
 

Squib

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Force the rich to invest in Anglo shares!

Oh... they already did.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Is this your position ?
Nope, it was a comment on the fact that Patslatt opened a thread without an OP...I'm just wondering if he lost the pre-prepared rant he was about to enbark on.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Force the rich to invest in Anglo shares!

Oh... they already did.
Well then, force them to take the loss on that gamble, not joe and jane bloggs tax payer.
 

HanleyS

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The fundamental mistake people make when starting these threads/discussions is that the rich are footloose. If you have enough money it's easy to move your domicile to Barbados or the Seychelles or some exotic clime. If you get homesick you hop on a plane and come home for a visit. When people talk about 'taxing the rich', what they actually mean is squeezing the middle class for more.
 

HanleyS

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Well then, force them to take the loss on that gamble, not joe and jane bloggs tax payer.
They already did, the bank has been nationalised. The shares are worthless. What you are talking about is bond holders. A separate issue. I doubt many of them are a) individuals b) domiciled in Ireland.
 

FreshStart

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The Laffer Curve....of course that also applies to every Tom, Dick & Harry. Middle income people get fleeced. EBS was nationalised but the government still powerless over mortgage interest rates?
 

bormotello

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They already did, the bank has been nationalised. The shares are worthless.
Not really
IT was a victory for the small investor, but now a leading bank is considering appealing the case to the highest court in the land.

A couple lost their life savings when bank shares collapsed, then won them all back again in a successful appeal to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

But semi-retired veterinary surgeon Patrick Noel Buckley (69) and his wife Helen may face yet another court battle to hang on to their €202,000 nest egg.

AIB is considering asking the Supreme Court to rule whether it should hear an appeal in relation to the case.

The Ombudsman's original decision ordered the bank to pay the Buckleys the €202,000 they invested on its advice.
Bank ready to challenge €200,000 refund case - Courts, National News - Independent.ie
 

maxthedog

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Beardy PS union guy on Morning Ireland, wants the NPRF to pay.

So looks like its the policy now that after robbing the past and the present, they now want to rob whats left of the the future, seeing as they have already plundered the fund.
 

ChickenBiryani

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The fundamental flaw with notions like this (and similar arguments made by Vincent Browne etc) is that they are based on statistics that have no granularity and are so broad-brush as to be meaningless. Its therefore possible for Vincenzo for example, to come to wildly erroneous conclusions.

Within the "statistics" that are often cited as support for these "tax the rich" claims, are old chestnuts such as "on average people earning over x paid y%" in tax. The problem with this is that the "people" they are referring to include PAYE workers (no matter how highly paid they might be) who have little or no ways (barring pensions) of avoiding or reducing their tax bill who have very high effective rates, and then people in the non-PAYE sector sometimes earning tens of millions, who through reliefs and clever structuring have effective rates less than 10%.

The way to solve this is through the elimination of the reliefs and schemes that allow this to happen, not to increase our rates which at the top end, are already nearly the highest in Europe. A high earning PAYE worker's total deductions are only exceeded by Swedens since the 2010 budget, when all the levies are taken into account, and the same worker gets little in return by way of comparison.

Budget 2010 overseas comparison

My great fear however, is that in an attempt to wipe out the most egregious of abuses within the system at the ultra wealthy end, it is in fact the former group of PAYE workers who will end up paying.

The reality (which people who claim Ireland is a low tax economy want to conveniently ignore), is that Ireland is a low tax economy is due to the low Corporation Tax rate, the absence of taxing at the low end of the salary spectrum, and the absence of all the other charges such as property taxes to which Ireland seems ideologically opposed.

It is not our rates that are the problem; for full disclosure I am a high rate taxpayer, and I would support fully the elimination of reliefs and even standardisation of pension relief.

Rather than tackle rates they should introduce a relatively high minimum effective rate (eg 40%) for people earning over a certain level.
 

HarshBuzz

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Let's face it, he's not the brightest star in the constellation. Of late he has taken to responding to posts via the headline box so as to avoid having his nonsense quoted and exposed. Starting a blank thread is at least consistent with that.
I don't think pat really deserves further exposure

Biffo\Kevin, what do you think of Chicken Biryani's excellent post above?
 

disgruntledcitizen

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The fundamental flaw with notions like this (and similar arguments made by Vincent Browne etc) is that they are based on statistics that have no granularity and are so broad-brush as to be meaningless. Its therefore possible for Vincenzo for example, to come to wildly erroneous conclusions.

Within the "statistics" that are often cited as support for these "tax the rich" claims, are old chestnuts such as "on average people earning over x paid y%" in tax. The problem with this is that the "people" they are referring to include PAYE workers (no matter how highly paid they might be) who have little or no ways (barring pensions) of avoiding or reducing their tax bill who have very high effective rates, and then people in the non-PAYE sector sometimes earning tens of millions, who through reliefs and clever structuring have effective rates less than 10%.

The way to solve this is through the elimination of the reliefs and schemes that allow this to happen, not to increase our rates which at the top end, are already nearly the highest in Europe. A high earning PAYE worker's total deductions are only exceeded by Swedens since the 2010 budget, when all the levies are taken into account, and the same worker gets little in return by way of comparison.

Budget 2010 overseas comparison

My great fear however, is that in an attempt to wipe out the most egregious of abuses within the system at the ultra wealthy end, it is in fact the former group of PAYE workers who will end up paying.

The reality (which people who claim Ireland is a low tax economy want to conveniently ignore), is that Ireland is a low tax economy is due to the low Corporation Tax rate, the absence of taxing at the low end of the salary spectrum, and the absence of all the other charges such as property taxes to which Ireland seems ideologically opposed.

It is not our rates that are the problem; for full disclosure I am a high rate taxpayer, and I would support fully the elimination of reliefs and even standardisation of pension relief.

Rather than tackle rates they should introduce a relatively high minimum effective rate (eg 40%) for people earning over a certain level.

good post and am in general agreement (and for transparency i am one of the 100K / "the rich" earners much referred to, though i can tell you it doesn't feel it) there does need to be a re balancing of the tax system across the board and not just the targeting of any one specific section as that is in effect victimisation.

those earning large sums of income outside of the paye system need to be taxed and comparable levels to those paye earners, at the other end of the spectrum those whom pay little to no tax also need to be included in the tax system and pay their fair share on a pro rata basis.

as for increasing corporate taxation, residential taxations, etc i'm not opposed to that in principal but it would need to be very carefully examined by those actually capable of doing so (that excludes 99.99% of posters here and the majority of those in the DoF also) to ensure that it generates the desired revenues without having wider negative consequences to employment, property prices / mobility, etc.

of course the fundamental matter of getting expenditure closer to income has to be key to the process, as we cannot simply increase taxation to address the deficit in the same manner as i cannot endlessly increase my income to match my outgoings......
 

Clanrickard

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I don't think pat really deserves further exposure

Biffo\Kevin, what do you think of Chicken Biryani's excellent post above?
Yes it was a good post and he is spot on. The rates are high enough. It is immoral to demand someone pay over 50% of their hard earned cash to the government. Vinny was at it again talking balls in the IT. His definition of how wealth is created is horlicks of the worst sort and sums up why lefties like that are basically unelectable.
 


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