Male-bodied transgender inmate in Limerick women's prison.

Strawberry

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Holy sht. That's actually scary. I have daughters around that age.

This guy only got community service for what he did to those children? A guy here got 3 years in prison for online harassment.

He's going back to court, hopefully it will be prison this time. I wonder will he try get into the women's prison.
If you're ever out alone with your daughters and one needs the bathroom Edg, you might actually be safer taking her into the men's and standing guard outside the cubicle. I know it sounds a bit weird but self ID laws have made the ladies open house for perverts, whereas the men in the gents are just men who need the loo. I have a 5 year old daughter, and I no longer send her into the ladies on her own, and have instructed her father not to either.
 


Beachcomber

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Holy sht. That's actually scary. I have daughters around that age.

This guy only got community service for what he did to those children? A guy here got 3 years in prison for online harassment.

He's going back to court, hopefully it will be prison this time. I wonder will he try get into the women's prison.
This guy is a chancer.

He broke the terms of his sentence, so as you say hopefully he will end up doing some prison time. As a
pedophile sex offender he may be in danger in a men's prison, but that's OK.

It will be his status as a pedophile sex offender that means he may be in danger, not his status as a supposed trans person.
 

Beachcomber

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If you're ever out alone with your daughters and one needs the bathroom Edg, you might actually be safer taking her into the men's and standing guard outside the cubicle. I know it sounds a bit weird but self ID laws have made the ladies open house for perverts, whereas the men in the gents are just men who need the loo. I have a 5 year old daughter, and I no longer send her into the ladies on her own, and have instructed her father not to either.
A very sensible approach to real life dangers.
 

Dame_Enda

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Imagine if Jimmy Saville changed his name to Janine and claimed female gender identity. Surely we wouldn't be allow him into a women's prison?
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Usually when people say things are "self evident" on this website, it means that they haven't got an argument.

We know for a fact that trans women in men's prisons, for example, are at significant risk of violence and sexual assault. We also know that at least some groups of trans women (such as those who have fully transitioned and who have not been convicted of violent or sexual crimes) represent a low threat to other female prisoners. We also know that the law in most jurisdictions where this is an issue (including Ireland) allows judges to use their discretion as to where prisoners should be sent.

So it's not at all self-evident that trans people in general (as opposed to specific subset of trans criminals) should always be placed in prisons populated by those who share their biological sex.
I was not referring to transgender people in general. If someone has physically transitioned then I think in most cases they should be accommodated in a prison that matches that. What is absurd is a policy that enables anatomically male prisoners who self identify as women to share prison space with female prisoners.
 

Beachcomber

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Imagine if Jimmy Saville changed his name to Janine and claimed female gender identity. Surely we wouldn't be allow him into a women's prison?

That would all be some feat - he's dead.

If you mean some living trans person instead, then that's exactly the situation.


“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Robert Purcell is chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee: “The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation."
 

Dame_Enda

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That would all be some feat - he's dead.

If you mean some living trans person instead, then that's exactly the situation.


“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Robert Purcell is chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee: “The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation."
I meant if he had still been alive.
 

Beachcomber

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I was not referring to transgender people in general. If someone has physically transitioned then I think in most cases they should be accommodated in a prison that matches that. What is absurd is a policy that enables anatomically male prisoners who self identify as women to share prison space with female prisoners.

So you want separate prisons for trans people, as some have claimed would be a good idea?
 

Dame_Enda

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You should have said that then.

If he was alive, and was sentenced in Ireland, then he would go to a woman's prison.
Despite being one of the most dangerous people on the planet to women and girls?

Is that wise?
 

edg

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If you're ever out alone with your daughters and one needs the bathroom Edg, you might actually be safer taking her into the men's and standing guard outside the cubicle. I know it sounds a bit weird but self ID laws have made the ladies open house for perverts, whereas the men in the gents are just men who need the loo. I have a 5 year old daughter, and I no longer send her into the ladies on her own, and have instructed her father not to either.
I've a 6 and 8 year old. I do the same thing! They use the cubicle in the mens when it's just us out. Youngest thinks it's hilarious, she thinks I'm too embarrassed to go into the ladies. She's not wrong!
 

HouseStark

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Usually when people say things are "self evident" on this website, it means that they haven't got an argument.

We know for a fact that trans women in men's prisons, for example, are at significant risk of violence and sexual assault. We also know that at least some groups of trans women (such as those who have fully transitioned and who have not been convicted of violent or sexual crimes) represent a low threat to other female prisoners. We also know that the law in most jurisdictions where this is an issue (including Ireland) allows judges to use their discretion as to where prisoners should be sent.

So it's not at all self-evident that trans people in general (as opposed to specific subset of trans criminals) should always be placed in prisons populated by those who share their biological sex.
Transwomen in men's prisons are biological males, and they are at risk of violence from other biological males. Yes, it would be safer for them to be separated from biological males. But not at the expense of women.

Women are also at risk from biological males, and transwomen are no less a threat than any other kind of male. That is why we have sex segregated prisons in the first place.

Why do you advocate prioritizing male safety and creating a more dangerous prison setting for women?
 

Dame_Enda

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I've a 6 and 8 year old. I do the same thing! They use the cubicle in the mens when it's just us out. Youngest thinks it's hilarious, she thinks I'm too embarrassed to go into the ladies. She's not wrong!
But a prison is a different story.
 

Mercurial

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Transwomen in men's prisons are biological males, and they are at risk of violence from other biological males. Yes, it would be safer for them to be separated from biological males. But not at the expense of women.

Women are also at risk from biological males, and transwomen are no less a threat than any other kind of male. That is why we have sex segregated prisons in the first place.

Why do you advocate prioritizing male safety and creating a more dangerous prison setting for women?
You're mistaken to think that protecting the rights of trans women comes at the expense of cisgender women, and that they poss less of a threat than "any other kind of male (sic)".
 

Mercurial

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I was not referring to transgender people in general. If someone has physically transitioned then I think in most cases they should be accommodated in a prison that matches that. What is absurd is a policy that enables anatomically male prisoners who self identify as women to share prison space with female prisoners.
An "anatomically male" prisoner may still present as a woman, for example, and be subject to violence or sexual assault if sent to a male prison. Your preferred view would insist that the only way for such a person to avoid that risk would be to undergo irreversible medical procedures.

My preferred approach is to give judges (in consultation with the relevant experts) the final say as to who should be housed where on a case-by-case basis.
 

Mercurial

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You have used those words.

Many lists of gender status use those words.

Who are you to define what transpeople do and don't call themselves?
Pro tip: transphobes are generally okay with "trans people". It's "trans men" and "trans women" they have an issue with.
 

Mercurial

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I never said that either. Men, no matter how they identify should be not placed in a women's prison.
You referred to "criminals with male genitalia". If a criminal gets rid of his male genitalia, I don't think that should allow him to be placed in a woman's prison, and I don't think most anti-trans activists think so either.
 


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