Many advanced welfare states allow too much inequality in basic education. Maybe a good indicator of social inequality?

Patslatt1

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Many advanced welfare states allow too much inequality in basic education. Maybe a good indicator of social inequality?

See http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf for the statistics on the share of low achievers in all three subjects in the international PISA tests.

I made an arbitrary selection of countries and their low achievers percentages below:
5 to 5.9% Japan, Canada
6 to 6.9% Finland, Ireland
7 to 7.9% Denmark, Russia
8 to 8.9% Poland, Norway
9 to 9.9% Germany
10 to 10.9% UK, Switzerland, Spain, New Zealand, Portugal
11 to 11.9% Australia, Sweden
12 to 12.9% Italy
13 to 13.9% Austria, USA, Czech Republic
14 to 14.9% Croatia, France

Luxemburg 17.0% Hungary 18.5% Israel 20.2% Greece 20.7% Romania 24.3% Turkey 31.2% Mexico 33.8% Quatar 42% Brazil 44.1% Algeria 61.1%

If the above educational results for teenagers are a good indicator of social inequality, many advanced welfare states are far more unequal than generally realised. There is no excuse for poor results in countries that have been imposing heavy welfare state taxes for generations.

I can only speculate on the reasons why France, Sweden, Belgium, Austria and Luxembourg perform poorly. Sweden has been encouraging the growth of no fee independent schools in response to poor results in the state schools whose management has become too bureaucratic in the extremely centralised Swedish state.In France, like French society in general, rigid bureaucracy prevents educational reform. Social exclusion must also be lowering standards, with extremely high employer payroll costs causing persistent mass unemployment among racial minorities and in old industrial areas. In Belgium, constant historic bickering between Flemings and Waloons distracts from good governance. In Austria until the rise of the far right politicians in recent years, the political system had become fossilised thanks to the party list system and that must have affected education adversely. As the highest income country in the EU, maybe Luxemburg has become complacent about its poor education.

The USA's poor performance contrasts with excellent results in Canada's similar society. USA's results are likely dragged down by schools in low income areas that are typically funded poorly out of property taxes. Also,the children of the millions of Hispanic undocumented immigrants in the USA come from countries in central and South America with poor education systems, such as Mexico's (33.8% above).

Given the extremely well educated Jewish populations in Europe and the USA, Israel's poor performance is surprising. Massive military spending must be crowding out education spending.

Finally, Ireland has one of the best performances.Hopefully,over time this will eliminate the distinct social class division with socially excluded areas of Dublin and elsewhere.
 


Dame_Enda

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The breakdown of school discipline with the abolition of corporal punishment and growth of class sizes to unmanageable levels in some countries may be a factor also.
 

Patslatt1

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The breakdown of school discipline with the abolition of corporal punishment and growth of class sizes to unmanageable levels in some countries may be a factor also.
It's counterintuitive but class sizes are not statistically related to educational results.In large classes,maybe teachers get the cleverest kids to help classmates.

Teacher unions are always pushing for smaller classes but increasing teacher pay would likely improve results by attracting more able teachers. Research in New York City showed that the best teachers advanced their students by about two academic years in subjects compared to average teachers.

Corporal punishment undermines children's confidence. Making children stay on for extra time in the school day would be a better form of punishment if parents and teachers would agree on that. A few teachers would have to stay on for supervision.
 

Dame_Enda

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It's counterintuitive but class sizes are not statistically related to educational results.In large classes,maybe teachers get the cleverest kids to help classmates.

Teacher unions are always pushing for smaller classes but increasing teacher pay would likely improve results by attracting more able teachers. Research in New York City showed that the best teachers advanced their students by about two academic years in subjects compared to average teachers.

Corporal punishment undermines children's confidence. Making children stay on for extra time in the school day would be a better form of punishment if parents and teachers would agree on that. A few teachers would have to stay on for supervision.
I think if a pupil is threatening the teachers with knives then an exception should be made to allow corporal punishment.

Performance related pay and school league tables would also encourage competition between schools and teachers, driving standards up. Also we must tackle the absurd number of hours devoted to religion in our education system - only Saudi Arabia and Israel devote more hours to religion. :roll:
 

Filibuster

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The French system is floundering largely because of structural issues and lack of imagination about how to teach. It’s very focused on learning by rote, dry, uninteresting approaches to material and it’s very elitist.

It also comes from a very old fashioned, shouty, disciplinarian model.

It’s a system that is over-academic, over loaded (crazy long hours 40h per week isn’t unusual for students sitting the Bac.)

Similarly in 3rd level it’s full of formality and learning by rote and access to the high end of the jobs market is via the basically private “ecole superior" system, which is like a parallel university system that is both expensive and elitist, despite all the talk about equality and equal opportunity.

There’s also no willingness to reform.

You think of France as very easy going and liberal. The school system is anything but!
 

Patslatt1

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The French system is floundering largely because of structural issues and lack of imagination about how to teach. It’s very focused on learning by rote, dry, uninteresting approaches to material and it’s very elitist.

It also comes from a very old fashioned, shouty, disciplinarian model.

It’s a system that is over-academic, over loaded (crazy long hours 40h per week isn’t unusual for students sitting the Bac.)

Similarly in 3rd level it’s full of formality and learning by rote and access to the high end of the jobs market is via the basically private “ecole superior" system, which is like a parallel university system that is both expensive and elitist, despite all the talk about equality and equal opportunity.

There’s also no willingness to reform.

You think of France as very easy going and liberal. The school system is anything but!
The French have an inflexible mentality. Despite millions of tourists,typical Paris cafes don't offer Americano coffee, ales on draft or a menu choice of more than two fishes on fridays with the choice apart from salmon very overpriced. I must open a cafe there advertising these items! Americanos & Ales Cafe.
 
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PBP voter

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People in Ireland dont realize how lucky we are when it comes to education.

If you can't afford private school in the likes of Sweden,Denmark,Finland,France,Holland,Germany you have no chance.

Plus in Ireland you have the Gaelscoil so your children don't have to sit beside a foreigner.

What a system we have. We even cater for racists.
 

silverharp

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If Japan is an example of "best any society can reasonably do" the difference with Germany might be explained by migration from low social capital countries.
 

bob3344

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If Japan is an example of "best any society can reasonably do" the difference with Germany might be explained by migration from low social capital countries.
Exactly.

You can have the best education system in the world but the kids have to come from a background which values education.

Look at the varying outcomes for Chinese & Pakistani children in the UK.

Its not always our fault, radical I know.
 

reg11

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See http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf for the statistics on the share of low achievers in all three subjects in the international PISA tests.

I made an arbitrary selection of countries and their low achievers percentages below:
5 to 5.9% Japan, Canada
6 to 6.9% Finland, Ireland
7 to 7.9% Denmark, Russia
8 to 8.9% Poland, Norway
9 to 9.9% Germany
10 to 10.9% UK, Switzerland, Spain, New Zealand, Portugal
11 to 11.9% Australia, Sweden
12 to 12.9% Italy
13 to 13.9% Austria, USA, Czech Republic
14 to 14.9% Croatia, France

Luxemburg 17.0% Hungary 18.5% Israel 20.2% Greece 20.7% Romania 24.3% Turkey 31.2% Mexico 33.8% Quatar 42% Brazil 44.1% Algeria 61.1%

If the above educational results for teenagers are a good indicator of social inequality, many advanced welfare states are far more unequal than generally realised. There is no excuse for poor results in countries that have been imposing heavy welfare state taxes for generations.

I can only speculate on the reasons why France, Sweden, Belgium, Austria and Luxembourg perform poorly. Sweden has been encouraging the growth of no fee independent schools in response to poor results in the state schools whose management has become too bureaucratic in the extremely centralised Swedish state.In France, like French society in general, rigid bureaucracy prevents educational reform. Social exclusion must also be lowering standards, with extremely high employer payroll costs causing persistent mass unemployment among racial minorities and in old industrial areas. In Belgium, constant historic bickering between Flemings and Waloons distracts from good governance. In Austria until the rise of the far right politicians in recent years, the political system had become fossilised thanks to the party list system and that must have affected education adversely. As the highest income country in the EU, maybe Luxemburg has become complacent about its poor education.

The USA's poor performance contrasts with excellent results in Canada's similar society. USA's results are likely dragged down by schools in low income areas that are typically funded poorly out of property taxes. Also,the children of the millions of Hispanic undocumented immigrants in the USA come from countries in central and South America with poor education systems, such as Mexico's (33.8% above).

Given the extremely well educated Jewish populations in Europe and the USA, Israel's poor performance is surprising. Massive military spending must be crowding out education spending.

Finally, Ireland has one of the best performances.Hopefully,over time this will eliminate the distinct social class division with socially excluded areas of Dublin and elsewhere.
It would be completely unwise to draw any conclusions from bullcrap PISA results. A teacher told me that teachers supervise these tests and many 'help' their students by giving them the correct answers. It's obvious that such a test couldn't have any integrity because for it to be the case, massive amounts of money would need to be spent, think LC.

Also, the premise of such a scoring system is based on a falsehood. Does a teacher who acts as a psychological battering ram for an angry student who may only ever achieve dire results, who gets his anger diffused in the school environment and doesn't take it out on an old lady in his neighbourhood, get no validation under such a materialistic, distorted value system, which really only measures one aspect of an educational system?

I imagine most teachers just play along and rightly sabotage such an idiotic value system that satisfies bureaucrats, politicians, talking heads and others by ensuring good results, and the idiots don't seem to notice.
 

Patslatt1

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People in Ireland dont realize how lucky we are when it comes to education.

If you can't afford private school in the likes of Sweden,Denmark,Finland,France,Holland,Germany you have no chance.

Plus in Ireland you have the Gaelscoil so your children don't have to sit beside a foreigner.

What a system we have. We even cater for racists.
I encouraged an African primary teacher with qualifications from Zimbabwe to take Gaelic instruction and visit the Gaeltachts to prepare for a teaching job.
 

Patslatt1

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If Japan is an example of "best any society can reasonably do" the difference with Germany might be explained by migration from low social capital countries.
Formerly communist East Germany?

Czech Republic has a mediocre score despite having had a very advanced manufacturing economy before WW2 and communism.
 

Patslatt1

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Exactly.

You can have the best education system in the world but the kids have to come from a background which values education.

Look at the varying outcomes for Chinese & Pakistani children in the UK.

Its not always our fault, radical I know.
An old fashioned attitude that keeps women in the home discourages Muslim women from education and that in turn affects the education of their children.

It's surprising that Muslim Algeria's socialist government has such a lousy education system. An Algerian told me that the entire system of business is rigged in favour of insiders and the connected.
 
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Patslatt1

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It would be completely unwise to draw any conclusions from bullcrap PISA results. A teacher told me that teachers supervise these tests and many 'help' their students by giving them the correct answers. It's obvious that such a test couldn't have any integrity because for it to be the case, massive amounts of money would need to be spent, think LC.

Also, the premise of such a scoring system is based on a falsehood. Does a teacher who acts as a psychological battering ram for an angry student who may only ever achieve dire results, who gets his anger diffused in the school environment and doesn't take it out on an old lady in his neighbourhood, get no validation under such a materialistic, distorted value system, which really only measures one aspect of an educational system?

I imagine most teachers just play along and rightly sabotage such an idiotic value system that satisfies bureaucrats, politicians, talking heads and others by ensuring good results, and the idiots don't seem to notice.
PISA is well funded enough to prevent cheating.Most governments want to know where their education system stands internationally and have little incentive to cheat because results aren't politically sensitive like Irish train drivers' pay.

As for antisocial behaviour, that drags down results of all countries.
 

making waves

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It's surprising that Muslim Algeria's socialist government has such a lousy education system.
Algeria has a 'socialist' government - just like Ireland did when the LP were in government from 2011-2016 - and knitted out with the equivalent of out lobbyist for privatising education along US lines, Ruairi Quinn as minister for education, the equivalent of Joan Burton as minister for social protection and discriminating against women, and the equivalent of Eamon Gimmemore as minister for jobs for the boys.

For patslatt - anything to the left of Trump is a mad raving communist it seems.
 

silverharp

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Formerly communist East Germany?

Czech Republic has a mediocre score despite having had a very advanced manufacturing economy before WW2 and communism.
its clear educational standards drop the more third world migrants you have. Muslims in Germany have a lower educational attainment, Japan is rich and has a cohesive society.
 

Patslatt1

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its clear educational standards drop the more third world migrants you have. Muslims in Germany have a lower educational attainment, Japan is rich and has a cohesive society.
Canada has a huge immigrant populatiion from everywhere but comes near the top of PISA results.
 

Dame_Enda

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We lack proper integration of welfare and work. Remember the backlash to Jobbridge? I personally found it enriching at a work experience level though I agree there was a problem with exploitation in some cases. The unions don't like job-activation schemes as they view them as cheap labour competition.
 


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