Many advanced welfare states allow too much inequality in basic education. Maybe a good indicator of social inequality?

General Urko

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Slightly tangental, but in Ireland have academic standards fallen - when I was in University only about the top 15% of students accademically got in, now it's vastly higher and the marking of exams there was savage relative to today, I would say most 2.2s would be 2.1s by today's standards.
Today, a primary degree (excluding medical, engineering and some very niche areas) is worth about as much as the Inter Cert was back in the day.
And of what significance is academic ability any way?
 


paulp

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Slightly tangental, but in Ireland have academic standards fallen - when I was in University only about the top 15% of students accademically got in, now it's vastly higher and the marking of exams there was savage relative to today, I would say most 2.2s would be 2.1s by today's standards.
Today, a primary degree (excluding medical, engineering and some very niche areas) is worth about as much as the Inter Cert was back in the day.
And of what significance is academic ability any way?
and really, the youth of today have no respect for their elders either .....
 

paulp

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See http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf for the statistics on the share of low achievers in all three subjects in the international PISA tests.

I made an arbitrary selection of countries and their low achievers percentages below:
5 to 5.9% Japan, Canada
6 to 6.9% Finland, Ireland
7 to 7.9% Denmark, Russia
8 to 8.9% Poland, Norway
9 to 9.9% Germany
10 to 10.9% UK, Switzerland, Spain, New Zealand, Portugal
11 to 11.9% Australia, Sweden
12 to 12.9% Italy
13 to 13.9% Austria, USA, Czech Republic
14 to 14.9% Croatia, France

Luxemburg 17.0% Hungary 18.5% Israel 20.2% Greece 20.7% Romania 24.3% Turkey 31.2% Mexico 33.8% Quatar 42% Brazil 44.1% Algeria 61.1%

If the above educational results for teenagers are a good indicator of social inequality, many advanced welfare states are far more unequal than generally realised. There is no excuse for poor results in countries that have been imposing heavy welfare state taxes for generations.

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Are they a good indicator?
Can you link to something to supports that they are other than a subjective opinion?
 

Notachipanoaktree

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I don't ever remember being asked my opinion or what I thought of something. I do remember being slapped for doing my mental arithmetic homework in my head. All I remember was trying to think through the sense of what was dictated while being rudely dragged onto the next 'thing', without discussion or even thought.

I doubt if there was even one teacher in the school who could educate.

It has not changed one iota, because the teachers have not changed one iotas.

[video=youtube;eYHQcXVp4F4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYHQcXVp4F4[/video]
 

Man or Mouse

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Slightly tangental, but in Ireland have academic standards fallen - when I was in University only about the top 15% of students accademically got in, now it's vastly higher and the marking of exams there was savage relative to today, I would say most 2.2s would be 2.1s by today's standards.
Today, a primary degree (excluding medical, engineering and some very niche areas) is worth about as much as the Inter Cert was back in the day.
And of what significance is academic ability any way?
The country is full of PhDs that can't get work, just provide fodder for low paid university lecturing spots which in turn have to be affecting the standards emerging.

Academic ability is huge in specific areas, generally though, an intuitive type with much less education could buy and sell a top academic in day to day matters. John Collison gave up the studies at MIT to advance the cause of his business.
 

Fr Peter McWhinger

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We lack proper integration of welfare and work. Remember the backlash to Jobbridge? I personally found it enriching at a work experience level though I agree there was a problem with exploitation in some cases. The unions don't like job-activation schemes as they view them as cheap labour competition.
Breed the lowest percentile of Dams with the most able percentile of Sires. This would involve lowest percentile males not breeding. Previously the competition for good mates would have excluded these but the Welfare State now enables them to breed.
 

Notachipanoaktree

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The country is full of PhDs that can't get work, just provide fodder for low paid university lecturing spots which in turn have to be affecting the standards emerging.

Academic ability is huge in specific areas, generally though, an intuitive type with much less education could buy and sell a top academic in day to day matters. John Collison gave up the studies at MIT to advance the cause of his business.
The problem lies in the fact that The country is full of PhD's of the structured assisted variety

FYI. A PhD is an individual who at least has the inherent ability to push back the boundaries of human knowledge, ability, and understanding. They do not fall out of trees and they cannot be made or pulled from a hat.
No amount of budget acquisition success can justify handing out valuable parchment, of any flavour, to the sons and daughters of Labour Party Members and Public & Civil Servants.
 
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Notachipanoaktree

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Breed the lowest percentile of Dams with the most able percentile of Sires. This would involve lowest percentile males not breeding. Previously the competition for good mates would have excluded these but the Welfare State now enables them to breed.
Wrong. Intelligence, like schizophrenia, is spread evenly through the population. Your way simply barres the vast majority of the intelligent from the pool. It also gives me far too much ammo to work with. I am not advocating dishing out valuable Parchment to attendees.
 

RasherHash

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Breed the lowest percentile of Dams with the most able percentile of Sires. This would involve lowest percentile males not breeding. Previously the competition for good mates would have excluded these but the Welfare State now enables them to breed.
That's a crazy kind of eugenics theory of everything you got there.
 

silverharp

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Canada has a huge immigrant populatiion from everywhere but comes near the top of PISA results.
by numbers though a lot of Chinese and Indians, they do well where ever they go
 

Gin Soaked

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Breed the lowest percentile of Dams with the most able percentile of Sires. This would involve lowest percentile males not breeding. Previously the competition for good mates would have excluded these but the Welfare State now enables them to breed.
Does that mean Male engineering graduates with first class honours bonking female chavs and having male chavs undergo vasectomies?.

Surely you should stop low IQ people reproducing if your thesis is to work?

And then who does the menial jobs?

If you are going to go all right wing with an IQ based eugenics theory, at least finish your thoughts...
 

Notachipanoaktree

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Slightly tangental, but in Ireland have academic standards fallen - when I was in University only about the top 15% of students accademically got in, now it's vastly higher and the marking of exams there was savage relative to today, I would say most 2.2s would be 2.1s by today's standards.
Today, a primary degree (excluding medical, engineering and some very niche areas) is worth about as much as the Inter Cert was back in the day.
And of what significance is academic ability any way?
Like !

But hey Urko just try and get or even keep a job without one. No matter how much you do or how well you do it, the happiness of the gang is more important and they do nott 'like' non members whether perceived or real.

[video=youtube;DbMP-cy1INA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbMP-cy1INA[/video]
 
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GrainneDee

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The breakdown of school discipline with the abolition of corporal punishment and growth of class sizes to unmanageable levels in some countries may be a factor also.
Actually class sizes have reduced drastically in the past thirty years or so; they are still not acceptable, but much smaller than they were at the highlight of corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was used as a control mechanism in the huge classes.

Corporal punishment did not help discipline - short sharp shocks are soon forgotten; meaningful punishments which involve learning something useful, and appreciating what was done wrong are much more effective.
 

Patslatt1

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Are they a good indicator?
Can you link to something to supports that they are other than a subjective opinion?
It's well known that lowest income families have low education standards. Upper income families who can afford third level education have the highest standards.
 

Patslatt1

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Actually class sizes have reduced drastically in the past thirty years or so; they are still not acceptable, but much smaller than they were at the highlight of corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was used as a control mechanism in the huge classes.

Corporal punishment did not help discipline - short sharp shocks are soon forgotten; meaningful punishments which involve learning something useful, and appreciating what was done wrong are much more effective.
Detention after school for learning tasks would be a good punishment but teachers wouldn't want to supervise the detainees.
 


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