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Marines charged...


ireland2004

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Mar 3, 2004
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316
Eight US marines have been charged over the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha last year.
Four are accused of unpremeditated murder and four others are charged with attempting to cover up the incident.

Men, women and children were killed by marines who said they were under attack from insurgents at the time.

The US military initially said the civilians died in unrest. If found guilty of second-degree murder, the marines could face life imprisonment.

Squad leader Staff Sgt Frank Wuterich has been charged with the unpremeditated murder of 12 Iraqis and ordering his troops to kill six people, his lawyer Neal Puckett said.

Lance Cpl Justin Sharratt has also been charged with three such counts, his legal representatives say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 198947.stm
 

badinage

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I was thinking about the concept of war crimes yesterday, and I can't decide how I feel about their prosecution. In theory, obviously I'm entirely in favour. However in practice, it seems to be a continuation of the concept of 'to the winner go the spoils'.

In other words, the victor in a war captures the leaders of the losing nation, and sticks them on trial for some war crime or other, leading to their execution. Meanwhile, the leaders of the victor nation get away scot-free. In Bosnia, most of the war crimes were committed by paramilitary and irregular units, yet Milosevic - the president of Serbia, not Yugoslavia, was labelled responsible for these actions.

The shelling of an urban areas (Sarajevo, Dubrovnik, Mostar) was claimed to be a war crime during the Bosnian wars. The Hague wishes to try colonels, generals, and heads of government for such actions. However, of course, American colonels, generals and George Bush himself will not be tried for the shelling of Fallujah. Again in Vietnam, war crimes were held to be the responsiblity of junior officers, not senior staff or elected officials in the US.

I suppose it could be argued that senior Serbs were held responsible for the actions of junior commanders because they failed to take steps to stop those commanders committing acts of violence and rape, whereas the US administration has - to a degree - prosecuted troops who committed war crimes, but usually only because of political/media pressure. If Abu Ghraib hadn't become a major scandal, would anyone have been prosecuted?

I accept the political reality that no US President is ever going to be convicted in the Hague for war crimes. However, is it better to have the West's "enemies" convicted for their war crimes, despite the blatant hypocrisy of it, or to prosecute no-one to avoid the double standard?
 

Bogwarrior

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Look at the initial American statement. This kind of statement has been heard hundreds of times since the conflict began.."Soldier and several civiliand killed in blast." The intention of these statements is to hide the American crime and slap a bit of black propaganda against the resistance groups. Only by luck in Haditha lived an Iraqi journalist, who as well as having a video camera, and a bit of savvy, also had a contact in _Time magazine.
How many hidden "Hadithas" have their been?
 

Nimrod

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Irish republicans, especially supporters of the Real IRA are in no position to lecture anyone about killing civilians :roll:
 

badinage

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It seems a lieutenant colonel is being charged with dereliction of duty.

I know its a leap, but if a battaltion commander can be charged with dereliction of duty over this incident, surely the same principle applies to the White House's duty to ensure prisons such as Abu Ghraib do not involve prisoner abuse
 

JCSkinner

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Nimrod said:
Irish republicans, especially supporters of the Real IRA are in no position to lecture anyone about killing civilians :roll:
What about the rest of us? Are we permitted to complain about the murder of Iraqi civilians by US and British forces?
 

Bogwarrior

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Nimrod said:
Irish republicans, especially supporters of the Real IRA are in no position to lecture anyone about killing civilians :roll:
And can supporters of the British Labour Party, Fianna Fail or U.S Government lecture the RIRA about killing civilians?
 

Catalpa

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badinage said:
I was thinking about the concept of war crimes yesterday, and I can't decide how I feel about their prosecution. In theory, obviously I'm entirely in favour. However in practice, it seems to be a continuation of the concept of 'to the winner go the spoils'.

In other words, the victor in a war captures the leaders of the losing nation, and sticks them on trial for some war crime or other, leading to their execution. Meanwhile, the leaders of the victor nation get away scot-free. In Bosnia, most of the war crimes were committed by paramilitary and irregular units, yet Milosevic - the president of Serbia, not Yugoslavia, was labelled responsible for these actions.

The shelling of an urban areas (Sarajevo, Dubrovnik, Mostar) was claimed to be a war crime during the Bosnian wars. The Hague wishes to try colonels, generals, and heads of government for such actions. However, of course, American colonels, generals and George Bush himself will not be tried for the shelling of Fallujah. Again in Vietnam, war crimes were held to be the responsiblity of junior officers, not senior staff or elected officials in the US.

I suppose it could be argued that senior Serbs were held responsible for the actions of junior commanders because they failed to take steps to stop those commanders committing acts of violence and rape, whereas the US administration has - to a degree - prosecuted troops who committed war crimes, but usually only because of political/media pressure. If Abu Ghraib hadn't become a major scandal, would anyone have been prosecuted?

I accept the political reality that no US President is ever going to be convicted in the Hague for war crimes. However, is it better to have the West's "enemies" convicted for their war crimes, despite the blatant hypocrisy of it, or to prosecute no-one to avoid the double standard?
TBH I always took those reports of 'War Crimes' in the Yugoslav Wars with a grain of salt. Not that they didn't take place but that the reporting of who was doing to what was so slanted. Namely the Serbs were blamed for being the major culprits primarily because they were the most independently minded people in eastern Europe.

A proud and independent people were crushed for daring to oppose in arms the attempts by the western Powers to dismember the Yugoslav State.


As for Iraq if there was Justice then Bush,Blair & Co. would be in the dock but it will never happen. Their punisment will be to see them remembered as two politicians who failed in a spectacular fashion due to hubris and ignorance in their handling of foreign policy.

Idiots! :x
 

merle haggard

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Catalpa said:
TBH I always took those reports of 'War Crimes' in the Yugoslav Wars with a grain of salt. Not that they didn't take place but that the reporting of who was doing to what was so slanted. Namely the Serbs were blamed for being the major culprits primarily because they were the most independently minded people in eastern Europe.

A proud and independent people were crushed for daring to oppose in arms the attempts by the western Powers to dismember the Yugoslav State.


As for Iraq if there was Justice then Bush,Blair & Co. would be in the dock but it will never happen. Their punisment will be to see them remembered as two politicians who failed in a spectacular fashion due to hubris and ignorance in their handling of foreign policy.

Idiots! :x
I agree . The same people who had the world petrified about Saddams WMD demonised the serbs from the beginning of the Yugoslavian conflict and before theyd even fored a shot . There were supposed to be mass graves piled to the brim with tens of 1000s of the blood thirsty serbs innocent victims. Later on they told us they couldnt find the mass graves because the dastardly serbs were routinely digging up the thousands of bodies and hiding them again . Utter nonsense in my opinion , just like the non existant WMD in Iraq .
The world media broadcast pictures of what they called the horror of Srebrinica . Horrific pictures of Ratko Mladic ...erm....escorting civilians to safety...the swine !!! And these Bosnian muslim refugees sought refuge from the rampaging baby eating serbs.....in Serbia !!!! The destabilisation of that country was greatly aided by lies and propaganda by the very same serial liars and mass killers who engineered the Iraq invasion . They did not let up until they had placed a CIA puppet in control, a handy serb businessman whod been educated and lived in America for 20 years . Just like the puppets they placed in charge of Iraq .
War criminals like Madeleine Albright openly justified the horrific sanctions against Iraq as a means of destabilising the Iraqi state . How many millions , mostly children , the elderly , the disabled and the infirm suffered and died over that period to allow the US and Britain to ultimately invade once the country had been sufficiently weakened . What purpose can sanctions which ban the importation of childrens medicine and even toys have only than to target children deliberately .
Its no surprise at all that the very people who demanded a war crimes tribunal be set up in the Hague also demanded that US citizens will have immunity from prosecution for crimes against humanity . That is simply twisted and warped , completely unjust .
 

Pax

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265
badinage said:
It seems a lieutenant colonel is being charged with dereliction of duty.

I know its a leap, but if a battaltion commander can be charged with dereliction of duty over this incident, surely the same principle applies to the White House's duty to ensure prisons such as Abu Ghraib do not involve prisoner abuse
Haven't they already said that they engage in torture? I mean Cheney came out brazenly in an interview to approve of 'waterboarding' recently. Why are the Gulags 'secret'? Makes you think what goes on there.

And how long before the justifying 'logic' behind this horror becomes acceptable at home? Maybe a few more series of 24 - now with extra torture scenes would do it...

Btw up until recently I considered the worst form of torture to involve say something with the genitalia, (say that scene in Casino Royale) either that or being boiled alive, or the stuff in 1984, that was until I read this,

The Darkest Corner of the Mind

....Last week, defence lawyers acting for Jose Padilla, a US citizen detained as an “enemy combatant”, released a video showing a mission fraught with deadly risk – taking him to the prison dentist. A group of masked guards in riot gear shackled his legs and hands, blindfolded him with black-out goggles and shut off his hearing with headphones, then marched him down the prison corridor(1).

Is Padilla really that dangerous? Far from it: his warders describe him as so docile and inactive that he could be mistaken for “a piece of furniture”.The purpose of these measures appeared to be to sustain the regime under which he had lived for over three years: total sensory deprivation. He had been kept in a blacked-out cell, unable to see or hear anything beyond it. Most importantly, he had no human contact, except for being bounced off the walls from time to time by his interrogators. As a result, he appears to have lost his mind. I don’t mean this metaphorically. I mean that his mind is no longer there....

There's really nothing left after they take your mind. And to think someone subjected to that could have been transported through Shannon....
 

Pax

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merle haggard said:
I agree . The same people who had the world petrified about Saddams WMD demonised the serbs from the beginning of the Yugoslavian conflict and before theyd even fored a shot . There were supposed to be mass graves piled to the brim with tens of 1000s of the blood thirsty serbs innocent victims. Later on they told us they couldnt find the mass graves because the dastardly serbs were routinely digging up the thousands of bodies and hiding them again . Utter nonsense in my opinion , just like the non existant WMD in Iraq .
The cruise missile 'left' (Hitchens, The Euston Manifesto langers etc) apologists and champions of contraindicitve intervention (by those causing the problem!) have blood on their pinstriped hands. Hopefully their increasing isolation amongst progressives will continue.

A recent darkly humorous post on the blog Lenin's Tomb was very apt in this regard.

On decent internationalism.
...Of course, there are not severed heads and drilled corpses appearing in bins in Burnley. There are not military checkpoints on the M26, where a soldier might well relieve you of your ID and refuse to let you pass, or arrest you, or shoot you for not smiling nicely. There are not torture chambers that we know of on the Isle of Man.

There are not rapists in army uniforms driving through your residential area in Humvees, with almost complete legal immunity and an institutionally encouraged contempt for you.

If the state had shot your fourteen year old daughter, you would expect to be able to attend the funeral at least.

The main production centres are not sweatshops surrounded by steep wire fences and armed guards. You will not have Coca Cola death squads visit your house if you happen to belong to a trade union.

The minimum wage, though pathetic, is somewhat higher than 35 cents an hour. You do not have an air force bombing the council estates, then bombing the ambulances that pick up the victims, then bombing the cars with fleeing civilians....
 

FakeViking

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Don't be ridicolous. Bertie looked GWB in the eye when he was assured no renditions were taking place thru Shannon. Let's face it, Bertie knows a liar when he sees one, there's enough of them in FF.
 

THR

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I sincerely hope that USA and Britain get so deep bogged in Iraq that it makes Vietnam seem like a disneyland. An illegal war in the first place. Even though I used to like Blair but because of him being such a lapdog to Bush, I have nothing but contempt for the man. The sooner he goes the better. Hopefully Brown has more sense.
 

lothario

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THR said:
I sincerely hope that USA and Britain get so deep bogged in Iraq that it makes Vietnam seem like a disneyland. An illegal war in the first place. Even though I used to like Blair but because of him being such a lapdog to Bush, I have nothing but contempt for the man. The sooner he goes the better. Hopefully Brown has more sense.
I may not agree with the war but that doesn't mean I relish the prospect of a bloody disaster... even if you disagree with the policies you could still be looking for a constructive way out.
 

Rocky

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THR said:
I sincerely hope that USA and Britain get so deep bogged in Iraq that it makes Vietnam seem like a disneyland. An illegal war in the first place. Even though I used to like Blair but because of him being such a lapdog to Bush, I have nothing but contempt for the man. The sooner he goes the better. Hopefully Brown has more sense.
That's a fairly sick thing to say. So you want Iraqis to die and continue to live in a terrible situation so that Bush and Blair will look bad.
 

THR

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lothario said:
THR said:
I sincerely hope that USA and Britain get so deep bogged in Iraq that it makes Vietnam seem like a disneyland. An illegal war in the first place. Even though I used to like Blair but because of him being such a lapdog to Bush, I have nothing but contempt for the man. The sooner he goes the better. Hopefully Brown has more sense.
I may not agree with the war but that doesn't mean I relish the prospect of a bloody disaster... even if you disagree with the policies you could still be looking for a constructive way out.
All right, I admit, I exaggerated a bit. I don`t really hope for more bloodbath. I just wish the US and Britain left the country. Probably the Iraq-war is the most futile and ill-advised war in the modern history.
 

THR

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Rocky said:
THR said:
I sincerely hope that USA and Britain get so deep bogged in Iraq that it makes Vietnam seem like a disneyland. An illegal war in the first place. Even though I used to like Blair but because of him being such a lapdog to Bush, I have nothing but contempt for the man. The sooner he goes the better. Hopefully Brown has more sense.
That's a fairly sick thing to say. So you want Iraqis to die and continue to live in a terrible situation so that Bush and Blair will look bad.
I already said that I exaggerated and what I really hope for is the US and Britain to leave the country which they should not have entered in the first place.

Hopefully, the Iraqi-lessons make future US-presidents think twice before embarking on an adventure of invading other countries.

I could easily understand if there was a Tory-government in London, being a poodle to the Americans belongs to the Tory-philosophy, but I`m amazed how a Labour-government are willing to be servants just as well.

Of course, the rich Iraqi oil-reserves were the reason for the war, not some imaginary WMD.
 

lothario

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Whatever about your analysis, I appreciate that you took back what you said. That's dangerous territory the Left flirts with too often.
 

FakeViking

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I note from today's Irish Times that the US military are so desperate to recruit that they're now acceping applications from people who score low in intelligence tests. Bodes really well for a peaceful exit strategy from this dreadful conflict, doesn't it? If only Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz had grandchildren in the front line, there might have been more reluctance to start on Crusade!
 

THR

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lothario said:
Whatever about your analysis, I appreciate that you took back what you said. That's dangerous territory the Left flirts with too often.
Well, I didn`t say anything like "I hope the lives of ordinary Iraqis continues to get worse" or the sort. However, the illegal invasion of the country is bound to cause a lot of fierce resistance, which in turn leads to reprisals against the civilian population. Countries like Denmark and Belgium let foreigners invade their country without resistance but most countries want to do the utmost to drive the invaders out.

The happiest outcome of Iraq would be that the US and Britain pulled out during 2007. The principal reason for the war in the first place was to get control of the Iraqi oil reserves. Bush himself is a poodle to big business.
 
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