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Mass unmarked grave in Tuam for 800 babies (Second Thread)

Andrew49

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I would be happy to see this issue gain the light of day particularly as the Irish state still seems to collude with religious orders in Ireland in restricting access to proof of what was a lucrative trade for those orders. Once again it appears that events, dear boy, events, may run away with the usual Irish institutional stasis when it comes to dealing with those organisations.
Official Ireland very silent on the concrete tomb in Tuam containing the bodies of 800 children.



<Mod> This thread has been merged with "The Phantom Holocaust". </Mod>


The only work I'm familiar with concerning 'The Phantom Holocaust' is Olga Gershenson's book on Soviet Cinema and the Jewish Catastrophe - 2013. I think. So I haven't a clue what this particular 'Mod' is up to.

If this 'Mod' is playing 'silly buggers' with the remains of 796 dead babies & infants they should be ashamed of themselves.
 
Last edited:


Rausmaus Von Schnellkat

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Yes, journal.ie and Irish Daily Mail are the only outlets besides Irish Central in the states I notice to cover this.

Nothing in the Indo or Times as far as I know or coming up on link-searches. 800 bodies- I believe a Garda investigation has been launched into why there are no death certifications for these bodies.

Bit of a pattern. I know of similar mass graves around other religious institution grounds abroad as well- 1,000 I think in one in North America if memory serves.

I'm sure given the usual Irish systemic bureaucratic abuse we'll be seeing a lot more of this kind of thing emerging when the state notes that any of the members of the relevant orders are safely dead and beyond questioning.

Much of which will be down to the plants the RCC has in place in the Irish state apparatus.
 

Rausmaus Von Schnellkat

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Should really be a separate thread given that the Philomena story of human-trafficking for profit is the Third Scandal whereas I suspect we'll find that the Fourth Scandal is the amount of unmarked graves around certain religious institutions.

It'll be interesting to see whether there is any official willingness to have those skeletons examined forensically as well.


'Statistics show a quarter of all babies born outside marriage in the 1930’s in Ireland died before their first birthdays. As observers have remarked elsewhere, these were infant death rates from the 17th century.'

and...

'Between 1945 and 1965 more than 2,200 Irish infants were forcibly adopted, an average of 110 children every year, or more than two a week.

Church officials have consistently denied that they ever received payments for these adoptions, insisting many of the papers and documents from that period were lost in a fire. '

The Holy Smoke strikes handily again.
 

Andrew49

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One institution managed to 'lose' - between 1930 and 1970 - 2,000 children.

Seems if a child couldn't be sold on to some rich yank it became "‘ emaciated, pot-bellied, fragile with flesh hanging loosely on limbs", then entombed in concrete!

I could be completely wrong, of course! All these deaths in Tuam may have been down to natural causes!
 

Rausmaus Von Schnellkat

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One institution managed to 'lose' - between 1930 and 1970 - 2,000 children.

Seems if a child couldn't be sold on to some rich yank it became "‘ emaciated, pot-bellied, fragile with flesh hanging loosely on limbs", then entombed in concrete!

I could be completely wrong, of course! All these deaths in Tuam may have been down to natural causes!
Well in fairness a 25% fatality rate among children born outside wedlock compared to death rates for children born in that happy official state might be ajudged more than statistically significant.

It would be in health stats.
 

Rausmaus Von Schnellkat

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Bloody hell ... this is more than statistically significant.. 'In one year alone in the mid 1940’s in the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in County Cork, out of the 180 babies born 100 died.'

Makes you wonder whether the death rates were to cover up a sales scam or something.

A death rate in excess of 50% in one year is stretching credulity well beyond the breaking point.
 

Andrew49

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Another place lost half it's charges in the first year ... attrition rate of 1 child in every two was dying ... that was 1930.

A storify of all @Limerick1914 tweets about the Children's Home in Tuam (1920s-1960s) ~ LINK
 

Goa Tse

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Official Ireland very silent on the concrete tomb in Tuam containing the bodies of 800 children.
This is the real face of catholicism.

No wonder officialdom is silent on this.
 

Andrew49

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Geneology Tuam Home, Tuam, County Galway


The accepted practice was that unmarried mothers in the Tuam home ‘agreed’ to provide a year of unpaid domestic service to the nuns, and that in addition to this servitude, the home received State support, via Galway County Council, to the tune of £1 per child or mother per week. LINK
 

GrainneDee

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Yes, journal.ie and Irish Daily Mail are the only outlets besides Irish Central in the states I notice to cover this.

Nothing in the Indo or Times as far as I know or coming up on link-searches. 800 bodies- I believe a Garda investigation has been launched into why there are no death certifications for these bodies.

Bit of a pattern. I know of similar mass graves around other religious institution grounds abroad as well- 1,000 I think in one in North America if memory serves.

I'm sure given the usual Irish systemic bureaucratic abuse we'll be seeing a lot more of this kind of thing emerging when the state notes that any of the members of the relevant orders are safely dead and beyond questioning.

Much of which will be down to the plants the RCC has in place in the Irish state apparatus.
Most of Liveline was taken up with it today
 

GrainneDee

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Geneology Tuam Home, Tuam, County Galway


The accepted practice was that unmarried mothers in the Tuam home ‘agreed’ to provide a year of unpaid domestic service to the nuns, and that in addition to this servitude, the home received State support, via Galway County Council, to the tune of £1 per child or mother per week. LINK
And then the babies were sold to Americans. Think of all the money those nuns raked in. What did they do with it all?
 

Andrew49

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Old Mr Grouser

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Should really be a separate thread ... It'll be interesting to see whether there is any official willingness to have those skeletons examined forensically as well ...
Yes, you've made two important points there, Raus.

I'd spotted this story a few days ago, and i'd posted on one of the Mass Graves threads _ http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/108054-mass-graves-ireland-14.html#post8081690

I'm becoming a bit sceptical; have a listen to this discussion that there was on Liveline yesterday - go to Liveline Wednesday 28 May 2014 - Liveline - RTÉ Radio 1 and click on 'communal grave in Tuam'.

There are a few things about this story that worry me.

For one thing the place seems to be a bit of a Knock Shrine.

It's now identified as the place where for forty or fifty years there were nuns throwing corpses, up to eight hundred or so, into their sewage tank - and with no-one (not even the fellows that from time to time had to clean the tank) saying anything about it.

But it is only recently that the site has been associated with the 'Eight Hundred Babies in the Sewage Tank' - it was previously revered locally as a Famine Grave, with a Marian Image erected.

And the same site is also associated with 'the Tuam Martyrs' - with a bit of wall, still standing, that two of them are supposed to have been shot against.


The local cemeteries have no records of these eight hundred or so children being buried' but the great majority of these deaths would have been of babies or toddlers, but then a common practice of the time was to place such corpses in the coffins of dead adults.

Please, have a listen to that Liveline item.
 

Cato

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Yes, you've made two important points there, Raus.

I'd spotted this story a few days ago, and i'd posted on one of the Mass Graves threads _ http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/108054-mass-graves-ireland-14.html#post8081690

I'm becoming a bit sceptical; have a listen to this discussion that there was on Liveline yesterday - go to Liveline Wednesday 28 May 2014 - Liveline - RTÉ Radio 1 and click on 'communal grave in Tuam'.

There are a few things about this story that worry me.

For one thing the place seems to be a bit of a Knock Shrine.

It's now identified as the place where for forty or fifty years there were nuns throwing corpses, up to eight hundred or so, into their sewage tank - and with no-one (not even the fellows that from time to time had to clean the tank) saying anything about it.

But it is only recently that the site has been associated with the 'Eight Hundred Babies in the Sewage Tank' - it was previously revered locally as a Famine Grave, with a Marian Image erected.

And the same site is also associated with 'the Tuam Martyrs' - with a bit of wall, still standing, that two of them are supposed to have been shot against.


The local cemeteries have no records of these eight hundred or so children being buried' but the great majority of these deaths would have been of babies or toddlers, but then a common practice of the time was to place such corpses in the coffins of dead adults.

Please, have a listen to that Liveline item.
The site has long been known of in Tuam as has its relation to the 'Mother and Child Home' run by the nuns. A couple hve been tending to the site for some time now - mowing the grass and keeping it neat etc. They were the ones who placed the memorial stone and Marian shrine there. It was popularly believed that the site or somewhere near it had served as a famine grave and may well have - the 'Home' was located in the old Workhouse.

I recently talked to a business owner in Tuam who can remember children in the area back in the 70s running around with skulls on sticks having uncovered some of the bodies.

I spoke to an older gentleman today who can remember the children being walked through the town back in the 50s dressed in their brown uniforms.

This country was a seriously nasty place.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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... It'll be interesting to see whether there is any official willingness to have those skeletons examined forensically ...
Yes, absolutely.

Only in Ireland would any report of such practices, purportedly well within living memory, not attract the urgent attention of law enforcement agencies.

The Garda must investigate - whatever the cause of the deaths there are, it is said, up to eight hundred bodies packed in there; improperly interred, denied a decent funeral.

NUI Galway has an archaeology department, and they are only down the road. They could assist the Gardai concerned, and conduct a preliminary dig to see if there is any truth in the allegations.

If there is then then the bodies will have to be carefully exhumed - by forensic archaeologists, perhaps assisted by members of the Defence Forces whose UN service has involved the investigation of Mass Graves.
 

Cruimh

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Yes, you've made two important points there, Raus.

I'd spotted this story a few days ago, and i'd posted on one of the Mass Graves threads _ http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/108054-mass-graves-ireland-14.html#post8081690

I'm becoming a bit sceptical; have a listen to this discussion that there was on Liveline yesterday - go to Liveline Wednesday 28 May 2014 - Liveline - RTÉ Radio 1 and click on 'communal grave in Tuam'.

There are a few things about this story that worry me.

For one thing the place seems to be a bit of a Knock Shrine.

It's now identified as the place where for forty or fifty years there were nuns throwing corpses, up to eight hundred or so, into their sewage tank - and with no-one (not even the fellows that from time to time had to clean the tank) saying anything about it.

But it is only recently that the site has been associated with the 'Eight Hundred Babies in the Sewage Tank' - it was previously revered locally as a Famine Grave, with a Marian Image erected.

And the same site is also associated with 'the Tuam Martyrs' - with a bit of wall, still standing, that two of them are supposed to have been shot against.


The local cemeteries have no records of these eight hundred or so children being buried' but the great majority of these deaths would have been of babies or toddlers, but then a common practice of the time was to place such corpses in the coffins of dead adults.

Please, have a listen to that Liveline item.
Another from Irish Central: Memorial bid to mark mass grave of 800 babies in Galway - IrishCentral.com


While the high mortality rate is frightening and reflective of the attitudes of both the Church - and the wider population - towards the stigmatised and vulnerable children, the treatment of the dead also raises questions about the Church attitude towards Christian burial. These children would have been baptised and yet they were treated with the same contempt as was shown to unbaptised babies such as those who were stillborn. Slung in a hole in unconsecrated ground.
 

linny55

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There was a priest on Liveline who was upset at the way they were buried not the way they and their mothers were forced to live.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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... It was popularly believed that the site or somewhere near it had served as a famine grave and may well have

... I recently talked to a business owner in Tuam who can remember children in the area back in the 70s running around with skulls on sticks having uncovered some of the bodies.

.... This country was a seriously nasty place.
That's one of the reasons why Gardai and the archaeologists are needed.

Are the bodies from the Famine or the Workhouse - or are they the Children's Home, which places them within living memory and concerning people still alive?

But whatever, if there are bodies then they must be exhumed and given a decent reburial.

If the forensic pathologists say that they're children who died 'within living memory' then the State will have to take reasonable efforts to identify them and to contact relatives before the re-burial - DNA testing, as happens with recently exhumed bodies of soldiers killed in VietNam or the two World Wars.
 

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