Mass unmarked grave in Tuam for 800 babies (Second Thread)


StarryPlough01

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Calls from Survivor Groups for Minister for Children Katherine Zappone to resign... To restore public confidence, Chair of Commission into Mother and Baby Homes should be someone INDEPENDENT from outside Ireland...


Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Second Thread) - Page 93



Irish First Mothers Media Representative Fintan Dunne calls for resignations:

Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Second Thread) - Page 93



@POLITICIANS


Doubtless we will hear and / or read the politicians' usual inefficacious speeches in the Dail next week. HOWEVER I ASK THAT YOU TURN THE PAGE AND HAVE THE INTEGRITY AND COURAGE TO UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE THAT THE MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE MUST IMMEDIATELY RESIGN. Put this on record.
 

StarryPlough01

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Minister Zappone is pulling an American Trump manoeuvre on the Irish people...



@Politicians,


:mad2: MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE IS PULLING AN AMERICAN DONALD TRUMP MANOEUVRE :mad2:


MINISTER ZAPPONE SHOULD BE :thumbsup: *EJECTED FROM THE DAIL* :thumbsup: FOR HER PARTICIPATION IN A CRIMINAL CABAL THAT IS TRYING TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE



THEY INTEND TO PASS LEGISLATION THAT WILL OBSTRUCT JUSTICE FOR THE TUAM CHILDREN :mad2: *WITHOUT BENEFIT OF A COMPLETED REPORT* :mad2: FROM THE COMMISSION OF INVESTIGATION INTO MOTHER AND BABY HOMES



*THIS LEGISLATION MUST NOT BE VOTED IN*




@Everyone,


:thumbsup: TALK TO _ALL_ YOUR TDS AND TELL THEM TO VOTE DOWN ZAPPONE'S CORRUPT ACT :thumbsup:
 

Lumpy Talbot

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The history of Irish political attempts to maneouver a way out of disclosure down the years is worthy of a book in its own right. If you took the history of revelations leading up to the Ryan Commission hearings the early days of interviewing survivors of abuse began with quite intimidatory meetings where survivors were interrogated by barristers as if they were some kind of criminals.

The tune changed there when the stories began to emerge of quite bullying style meetings, intimidatory behaviour and of course when the power keg started looking a lot bigger than the government of the day realised- and that much of the info being relayed by survivors about abusive clerics and nuns was corrobarative from survivors who had been in the homes at different times and were relaying remarkably similar experiences, with the same names coming up.

The Ryan Commission final report had to be spiked by maneouvers back then by firstly saying that the identities of abusive clerics had to be covered up (false names attributed to them) in order to 'prevent prejudicing subsequent prosecution'.

Of course said prosecutions never occurred, with files sent to the DPP languishing in the dark cupboard at the DPP and the Ryan Commission report filled with false identities of abusive clerics which detailed, and I quote, 'endemic' levels of abuse in the residential homes. Few if any of the clerics/nuns involved and living at the time of the report faced any prosecution or legal action of any kind.

In the meantime the Irish government, with the involvement of people known to be close contacts of the catholic church, paid out redress 'on behalf of' the orders involved. Subsequently of course the orders negotiated a s'weetheart deal' seeking its contacts within government to secure a limit to redress bills- which of course meant that the Irish taxpayer would end up paying the compensation on behalf of these very wealthy orders who have been spectacularly evasive about their true wealth down the years.

When that sweetheart deal between representatives of the religious orders and its friends in government attracted public and media attention another Irish government reluctantly adopted the stance of being apparently belligerent in saying the orders had to pay a higher proportion of the mounting redress bill.

Some orders have paid some of the money. Other orders have paid a percentage, a few of the orders have paid their proportion of the redress bill. Other orders have attempted all sorts of maneouvers including trying to pass off payment of their own legal bills as a part of the redress bill. Some of the wealthiest orders have been evasive to say the least and well below the ethical standards they are supposedly fans of- including massaging their assets in an effort to hide the true scale of their wealth.

Well known members of the Irish political class as divergent as Pat Cox and Ruari Quinn have been active in attempting to manage the public away from visibility over the inadequate pawings of successive Irish governments in dealing with the orders. Pat Cox advised the Christian Brothers in their shifting of assets from various CB owned companies into a series of new trusts under a new brand in an attempt to disguise the scale of wealth attributable to that order.

Ruari 'Ho Chi' Quinn, to give him the nickname customarily used by the religious right wing made a statement out of apparently nowhere some years back when Minister for Education when he lamely said in the media that 'the orders don't have the money'.

This is of course incorrect and it is hard to understand how Mr Quinn came to that conclusion when there is a mountain of evidence in the public domain otherwise. It should be remembered that Mr Quinn, traditionally seen as an opponent of the churchmice, was sitting atop of a government department which has a less than clean history when it comes to disclosure of abuse records. It is known as one of the departments which was rotten with social conservative members of religious lay orders for many decades. It was much easier for people employed by that Dept to be seen to be cosy with the church and its involvement in the education sector in Ireland.

A New York Times reporter following up on its coverage of the Ryan Commission Report and the worldwide attention that brought rang the Dept of Education asking for details of updated child safety procedures in the Irish school system and was astonished to be advised by a Dept of Education spokesperson that she should telephone a number for the Catholic Church who the Dept of Education spokesperson seemed to think were in charge of a child safety policy update in Irish schools.

Of course since we have seen Mr Kenny, the devout catholic, weep some distinctly crocodile-like tears in the Oireachtas when issuing a state apology but little else on the subject of the state's failure to regulate the Magdalene Laundries. And of course the same man in response to statements that a public inquiry was needed on the issue by the United Nations Committee on Torture swung into the usual Irish 'misunderstanding' in this area and commissioned a dentist, also known to be a devout catholic and with no previous experience of chairing official reports to take charge of an 'interdepartmental report' on the laundries and related institutions.

Said report was rubbished on the day of its publication by a set of Dublin lawyers and aforementioned dentist resigned from the Seanad and disappeared sharpish, refusing to answer questions on a report which the nuns said was very considerate of their feelings.

The current government has been displaying the same signs of attempting to manage a problem away rather than dealing with the disclosure required around the discovery of a mass grave of infants behind a religious order's property.

At all times over the last two to three decades successive Irish governments have been carefully attempting the minimum and remain as guilty as past governments who were in power when the abuses now known about were being perpetrated in considerable safety by criminals in collars and orders of nuns who were drunk on their own social authority and assumed to be of unquestionable stature.

If Ms Zappone has any ambition to be seen as different to the diverse group of politicians in order who have failed or deliberately ended up on the wrong side of the historical ledger on issues of abuses of the past then she would be well advised to reconsider whether she is being advised by people who have an agenda other than the necessary disclosure involved. She wouldn't be the first government figure to be hoodwinked into collusion by advisors and civil servants taking the line of smoothing over or managing issues outside the public gaze and I doubt she'll be the last.

But on this one she'd need to mind herself that her legacy is far different and much more negative in aspect than she would have ever hoped for in going into politics.

And there are plenty of social reactionaries hidden in the Irish political undergrowth who would take as much pleasure in fooling Ms Zappone or making her inadvertently their puppet in the way they managed to make Ruari 'Ho Chi' Quinn their useful fool at one point some years ago.
 

RasherHash

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If the nuns 'held ceremonies' (for 'some'... why 'some'?) then they'd no doubt have records of that and records for any headstone purchased and for engraving of same, wouldn't they?

Why haven't they made such documentation or verification available?
The point is there were witnesses for some ceremonies, and that the council bulldozed the crosses, bones etc into one corner.

Catherine Corless admitted there had been 'markers' but subsequently dropped any mention of them and was allowed to do so in subsequent interviews.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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The point is there were witnesses for some ceremonies, and that the council bulldozed the crosses, bones etc into one corner.
Must be a handy bulldozer who managed to delicately bulldoze up to 800 infant bodies into a series of septic tanks. If that is the case then forensics would be able to confirm damage to the skeletons consistent with being bulldozed, wouldn't it?

As for the witnesses to little crosses and gravestones it would be pretty hard to be convincing where there are no little coffins and the bodies were stacked in the sewer infrastructure.

Are we saying that a funeral service was held and interment wrapped in cloth and stacked in a piece of sewer infrastructure openly in front of witnesses?

I doubt it somehow.

Do you have a link which identifies or has details of these witnesses?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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When was this bulldozing supposed to have taken place? And how do we know that there aren't a number of mass graves at the site, one or more having been built on after levelling by bulldozer?

Doesn't that rather imply there could be more than the almost 800 estimated bodies found in the bit that clearly hasn't been bulldozed?

And more than one mass grave?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Ever get the feeling there is a certain reaching in operation in an attempt to obfuscate the discovery of this mass grave? Bit hard to imagine a bulldozer driver for the council not querying and making sure he was alright to bulldoze a lovingly arranged cemetery with crosses and there not being a record at the council of what exactly was going on at the site.

Are bulldozer drivers in Ireland in the habit of bulldozing infant cemeteries with nice little crosses without making sure that it has been sanctioned by the people who pay his wages?

In which case there would be records of the related work with the council.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I never knew that asking for proof from an independent source was a delusion.
Pop along and ask at the local Garda station. I'm pretty sure the Gardai there will have been at the site and can set your mind at rest on whether there is a hoax in action or not.

The hoax theory rather falls down when you have a private company having examined the site in a preliminary stage- I think they might have queried where all the reported bones had gone, don't you?
 

Herr Rommel

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Pop along and ask at the local Garda station. I'm pretty sure the Gardai there will have been at the site and can set your mind at rest on whether there is a hoax in action or not.

The hoax theory rather falls down when you have a private company having examined the site in a preliminary stage- I think they might have queried where all the reported bones had gone, don't you?
Let's see some hard evidence first, evidence is something you don't believe in as it is easier for you to blame your failed life on the evils of the RCC.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I never knew that asking for proof from an independent source was a delusion.
Well the nuns who owned the property are remarkably silent. And of course it would be embarrassing if their PR agent Terry Prone had claimed there was a famine grave at the sight which might explain inconvenient amounts of bodies at the site.

Bear in mind that they were Prone's clients and if they were confident there were no bodies there why did they try to float an explanation for skeletons being present at the site?

Seems an unusual tack to take if it was all a hoax. It is almost as if they were preparing a useful landing ground for the discovery of remains they knew were there.

Otherwise why would the Crone be identifying a 'Famine gravesite' there even when Ms Crone has never previously indicated any personal knowledge of the site and the only thing she had to go on were the conversations with her clients- the order of nuns who ran the institution at the site.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Let's see some hard evidence first, evidence is something you don't believe in as it is easier for you to blame your failed life on the evils of the RCC.
Nothing to do with my life at all. In which I have actually been rather fortunate it has to be said. At least I haven't suffered delusion as a form of required mental illness.

You are the one exhibiting symptoms of being unable to process.
 
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Ever get the feeling there is a certain reaching in operation in an attempt to obfuscate the discovery of this mass grave? Bit hard to imagine a bulldozer driver for the council not querying and making sure he was alright to bulldoze a lovingly arranged cemetery with crosses and there not being a record at the council of what exactly was going on at the site.

Are bulldozer drivers in Ireland in the habit of bulldozing infant cemeteries with nice little crosses without making sure that it has been sanctioned by the people who pay his wages?

In which case there would be records of the related work with the council.
I am left with a vision of a very small bulldozer, say 4-year old size max, driven by an even smaller nun selectively moving very small plots of earth over to a barely seen opening in the ground where one might insert the contents carried by that careful bulldozer and place those contents lovingly into an Angelic Crypt no longer used for its original purpose onto shelves.
On one side a choir of Guards singing with angelic voices. On the other side a cheering squad of County Councilmen rooting for the driver of the bulldozer. A sign stating "Please do not send flowers".
 

Herr Rommel

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Nothing to do with my life at all. In which I have actually been rather fortunate it has to be said. At least I haven't suffered delusion as a form of required mental illness.

You are the one exhibiting symptoms of being unable to process.
Over 24,000 posts mostly attacking a dead religion. Sure they never did anything to you.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Over 24,000 posts mostly attacking a dead religion. Sure they never did anything to you.
I'm interested in the evidence you have to hand which leads to your conclusion that there is a hoax being perpetrated on the public, both national and international- that someone stands to benefit in some way in making a false allegation that there is a mass grave of mixed infants and indeed some adult remains at this site in Tuam.

Can you explain the logic and evidence you have at hand to explain your conclusion that is all a 'hoax'?

A hoax perpetrated by persons unnamed. And for what reason? Who benefits? What evidence have you seen that leads to you concluding a hoax?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Over 24,000 posts mostly attacking a dead religion. Sure they never did anything to you.
You'll find I post on many different subjects in that lot. As divergent as conversations on Europe, financial sector regulation, banking, dynasty politics, internet as a medium, American politics, EU politics, corporatism and federalism even down to Chat and Feedback threads including football and rugby.

It may suit you to try and portray me as a comfort to your own mind as some kind of obssessive on one subject but should you stir yourself beyond your own perceptions to take a look you'd find you are wrong.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Interesting to try to figure out what the rationale would be behind the Tuam mass grave site being a 'hoax'. Would it be local business figures preparing the market for some kind of macabre tourist attraction? A theme-park, perhaps, with a little train track.. come and see Dead Babbeh Tunnel...

No. Seems a bit gothic even for us, never mind tourists from abroad.

Wonder who would benefit from such a hoax? Mind you, the coroner for the region seems to be frightened to go to the site in case he or she has to be official in taking notice of it all.

Must be great being a coroner for Galway. A report of a mass grave containing up to as many as 800 sets of remains and sure, you can take your ease on the matter and not worry about whether you'll get a telephone call to hop in the motor for a mosey down to take a look.

Maybe he or she doesn't read the papers or listen to the radio or watch television or even have a mobile phone.
 
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