• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Mass unmarked grave in Tuam for 800 babies (Second Thread)


Texal Tom

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Messages
2,482
Twitter
Don't tweet
Yes, they were lucky to have survived where #796 did not with death certs from home run by the Bon Secours Sisters. Despite a doctor being available to the Home - a Dr. Bodkin Costello and the Sisters, whose area of expertise is nursing care, one wonders at the alarmingly high death rate. At the same time, the community outside did not have easy access to medical attention - yet the Home on occasion had rates of infant mortality that was five times higher than outside. If that's not a story of survival, I wonder what is?
I'm sure you have watched angelas ashes! Thousands died of TB in Ireland. TB was highly contagious. People living in homes were at similar risk levels to people living in inner city dublin as they too were living in large clusters. Explanation for this is very obvious! If you lived in the country area a neighbour who lived 1 mile away got it you were very unlikely to get it but you cant say the same for people living in dorms
 

Dearghoul

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
8,623
Well there are up to 800 infant remains in a mass grave on the site that may be worth investigating forensically to establish likely cause of death.

But the State Coroner for the region can't find Tuam, it appears, never mind the site.
I'm sure you have watched angelas ashes! Thousands died of TB in Ireland. TB was highly contagious. People living in homes were at similar risk levels to people living in inner city dublin as they too were living in large clusters. Explanation for this is very obvious! If you lived in the country area a neighbour who lived 1 mile away got it you were very unlikely to get it but you cant say the same for people living in dorms
TB isn't given as a cause of death in many death certificates in children homes.

That's before you come to the ones that seem to have seen death certificates as not nessecary.
 

StarryPlough01

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
14,739
@HereWeGoAgain

How do you know any of this is true?

He didn't have any need of a Birth Cert till he was getting married?


Did his adoptive parents never tell them he was adopted?

HOW ABSURD (SEE MY BOLD).


When I'm quickly taking notes (as opposed to transcribing verbatim), I don't worry about superfluous / repetitive words so much.

Eunan Duffy DID SAY that he didn't have an inkling that he was adopted until he got his long birth cert. I did type (after receiving his long birth certificate ~ with all the details) Eunan then immediately went in search of his mother. [HE STATED THIS] It took him 3 months to find her. She was suffering "huge PTSD" from having her gorgeous baby boy snatched off her chest after giving birth, and then forcibly adopted.

So, Catalpast, NO, Eunan wasn't informed that he was adopted by his adoptive parents.

I was wondering if Eunan's biological mother was able to attend Eunan's planned wedding in Ireland, or was it all too much for her to travel to Ireland with all those horrific memories? The horror of Ireland would still be held in her body (tense muscles, psychological trauma… she would require lots of support). Being in Ireland might compound her PTSD. Many women in this situation ended up in mental asylums and are still being warehoused in hostels, etc today (institutionalised and heavily medicated).

What happened at Marianvale Mother and Baby Home site with interference from the archaeologists paid by..? Eunan was cut off here by Keith 'due to time constraints' ~ rather conveniently, I thought, despite Keith's profuse apologies at that time and his high praise of Eunan at the end.





_____________



Some adoptees feel betrayed if they only hear they've been adopted as a teen or at a mature age, or find out after their adoptive parents have died (whilst going through their papers). They feel they have lived a life based on a lie, and they have no identity. Those UK and US TV series have highlighted this aspect ('Long Lost Family', and 'Find My Family'…both are good series and don't exploit the participants).

Does anyone else get the feeling that Minister Zappone is under pressure from survivors on all sides, and perhaps she might resign?
 

StarryPlough01

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
14,739
I'm sure you have watched angelas ashes! Thousands died of TB in Ireland. TB was highly contagious. People living in homes were at similar risk levels to people living in inner city dublin as they too were living in large clusters. Explanation for this is very obvious! If you lived in the country area a neighbour who lived 1 mile away got it you were very unlikely to get it but you cant say the same for people living in dorms

Did any of the 796 death certificates cite 'DIPTHERIA' as the cause of death? I didn't notice any mention of diptheria on the Tuam home's death records?


Update:


Here are the death records for 796 children at Tuam Home ~


Jun 17, 2014


Death records for 796 children at Tuam home published in full | IrishCentral.com


By Sheila Langan@IrishCentral
 
Last edited:

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
Did any of the 796 death certificates cite 'DIPTHERIA' as the cause of death? I didn't notice any mention of diptheria on the Tuam home's death records?


Update:


Here are the death records for 796 children at Tuam Home ~


Jun 17, 2014


Death records for 796 children at Tuam home published in full | IrishCentral.com


By Sheila Langan@IrishCentral
Re:

As she told IrishCentral’s Cahir O’Doherty, she was simply looking for records – something neither the Order of the Bon Secours nuns, who ran the home, nor the Western Health Board were able to help her with.
“Eventually I had the idea to contact the registry office in Galway. I remembered a law was enacted in 1932 to register every death in the country. My contact said give me a few weeks and I’ll let you know,” she recalled.



Did we ever discover the name of the person who gave Corless all this information?


IIRC the person was working there temporarily and is no longer an employee of GCC
 

HereWeGoAgain

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
14,680
I have not heard that GCC had the records or that C Corless acquired them there.

Where is the link or reference to this information?
 

HereWeGoAgain

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
14,680
Prime Time have lots of angles to explore on Tuam; I wonder if they will come back to it.

I thought Coughlan's investigation into the 'substructures' was pretty informative, particularly when one of the eye-witnesses stated that he had seen only a small number of bodies and wondered where the others were.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
I have not heard that GCC had the records or that C Corless acquired them there.

Where is the link or reference to this information?
You are right - they don't store the Death Certificates!

They are held in Dublin!

The General Register Office (Oifig An Ard-Chláraitheora) maintains a family research facility at Werburgh Street, Dublin 2, D08 E277.
At this office members of the public, for a prescribed fee, may search the indexes to the registers and purchase photocopies of records identified from the indexes. Please see Searches and Fees below for details of the fees.



Indexes in relation to the following records of life events are available for inspection at the research facility:
Births registered in the island of Ireland between 1st January, 1864 and 31 December, 1921 inclusive, and in Ireland (excluding the six north-eastern counties of Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Fermanagh and Tyrone known as Northern Ireland) from 1922 onwards.
Deaths registered in the island of Ireland between 1st January, 1864 and 31st December, 1921 inclusive and in Ireland (excluding Northern Ireland) from 1922 onwards.
Non-Roman Catholic Marriages registered in the island of Ireland between 1st April, 1845 and 31st December, 1863 inclusive.
Marriages registered in the island of Ireland between 1st January, 1864 and 31st December, 1921 inclusive and in Ireland (excluding Northern Ireland) from 1922 onwards.
Domestic Adoptions registered in Ireland from 10th July, 1953 onwards.
General Register Office (GRO) Research Facility
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,085
Twitter
No
TB isn't given as a cause of death in many death certificates in children homes.

That's before you come to the ones that seem to have seen death certificates as not nessecary.
If TB was at a certain level in the state then you'd expect mortality rates to be the same in the homes or perhaps lower given that the homes were being run by orders who ran hospitals in the same geographic area.

Then again we have an infamous report from a doctor who summarily closed a home because on inspection he realised that the nuns were covering up the fact that a lot of the children and infants were sick- when he went a bit further and looked at the children rather than the facilities he realised that there were serious infectious illnesses involved and that the nuns were attempting to cover it up rather than deal with it.

There is no way that the morbidity rate should have been well in excess of the national morbidity rates from such diseases in homes run by orders well aware of hospital processes within their own order and stationed nearby.
 

good dog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
2,546
Yes, they were lucky to have survived where #796 did not with death certs from home run by the Bon Secours Sisters. Despite a doctor being available to the Home - a Dr. Bodkin Costello and the Sisters, whose area of expertise is nursing care, one wonders at the alarmingly high death rate. At the same time, the community outside did not have easy access to medical attention - yet the Home on occasion had rates of infant mortality that was five times higher than outside. If that's not a story of survival, I wonder what is?
What medical attention did they have easy access to? What were the effective medicines they had access to?

What was the mortality rate in the home relative to the total amount of residents and patients that resided there and those admitted for any period of time to the home/hospital on an annual basis?

How many of the children that died were born to the unwed mother's that were abandoned to their by their families?
 

good dog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
2,546
If TB was at a certain level in the state then you'd expect mortality rates to be the same in the homes or perhaps lower given that the homes were being run by orders who ran hospitals in the same geographic area.

Then again we have an infamous report from a doctor who summarily closed a home because on inspection he realised that the nuns were covering up the fact that a lot of the children and infants were sick- when he went a bit further and looked at the children rather than the facilities he realised that there were serious infectious illnesses involved and that the nuns were attempting to cover it up rather than deal with it.

There is no way that the morbidity rate should have been well in excess of the national morbidity rates from such diseases in homes run by orders well aware of hospital processes within their own order and stationed nearby.
The mortality rate quoted for Tuam is not an accurate figure by any stretch of the imagination.

The reason for such a high morbidity rate is very simple, the home also served as a children's hospital. Sick children were admitted to it as were babies and children that their parents couldn't cope with.
Ever wondered if the babies that had congenital syphilis were born to a young unmarried woman from a good Catholic family?
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
The mortality rate quoted for Tuam is not an accurate figure by any stretch of the imagination.

The reason for such a high morbidity rate is very simple, the home also served as a children's hospital. Sick children were admitted to it as were babies and children that their parents couldn't cope with.
Ever wondered if the babies that had congenital syphilis were born to a young unmarried woman from a good Catholic family?
Its a fact that families were sent there that were destitute

- ie babies arrived who were nutritionally neglected


This would have lowered their chances of survival


Also its clear that a higher than average of those kids who died had congenital defects

- it would seem likely that they were shifted to Tuam as no one else wanted the burden of them

However until we have more information

- and hopefully the Committee of Investigation will make their Final Report next year

- we will then be able to crack the numbers here.
 

good dog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
2,546
Its a fact that families were sent there that were destitute

- ie babies arrived who were nutritionally neglected


This would have lowered their chances of survival


Also its clear that a higher than average of those kids who died had congenital defects

- it would seem likely that they were shifted to Tuam as no one else wanted the burden of them

However until we have more information

- and hopefully the Committee of Investigation will make their Final Report next year

- we will then be able to crack the numbers here.

I expect a very vague report to suit an agenda. For example a high percentage of young mothers sent to the home would have been victims of rape by a family member. DNA testing would prove this but doubtful that the state would want to make that known to the relatives (still mourning relatives hoping for a few quid but never cared before) of the deceased.
 

Dearghoul

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
8,623
If TB was at a certain level in the state then you'd expect mortality rates to be the same in the homes or perhaps lower given that the homes were being run by orders who ran hospitals in the same geographic area.

Then again we have an infamous report from a doctor who summarily closed a home because on inspection he realised that the nuns were covering up the fact that a lot of the children and infants were sick- when he went a bit further and looked at the children rather than the facilities he realised that there were serious infectious illnesses involved and that the nuns were attempting to cover it up rather than deal with it.

There is no way that the morbidity rate should have been well in excess of the national morbidity rates from such diseases in homes run by orders well aware of hospital processes within their own order and stationed nearby.
Look. My own cynicism leads me to question why if there was rampant TB in the greater community, they didn't cite its as a
cause of death . It would have surely been the easiest option, for them. I'm only too well aware that by asking that question that I'm danger of playing into the hands of the satanic catalpast ,and his dark machinations, but it would be good to get to the truth.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
26,085
Twitter
No
Look. My own cynicism leads me to question why if there was rampant TB in the greater community, they didn't cite its as a
cause of death . It would have surely been the easiest option, for them. I'm only too well aware that by asking that question that I'm danger of playing into the hands of the satanic catalpast ,and his dark machinations, but it would be good to get to the truth.
I think we agree that the truth is desirable. I think you have a good point that if TB rates at the home were much higher at the residential institution then that should be reflected on the death certs. There is also some doubt I believe around whether the certs were being produced by authorised persons- we do know from other residential institutions that the nuns were in the habit of certifying or having certs signed by a lay person working at the institution so on that basis one would not know how much to believe of those documents.

This is why it is very important to get at the cause of death and I suspect, although not an expert in this area, that a forensic examination and testing of even bones would give a more accurate picture of cause of death.

Given the maneouvers at government level, and noticeable lack of maneouvers by the Coroner for the region, I also have more than a suspicion that there is an effort to steer away from the proper examination of the remains and towards some sort of fluffy general funeral ceremony with documentation on the remains locked away by some new process the government seems to be marching toward.

I am appalled by the wait until a few weeks before publication is due, to announce yet another year is required for promised reporting. This seems utterly cavalier an attitude towards families of those whose remains may have been disposed of in such a fashion at Tuam and where there are painful questions about identifying those incarcerated at such homes for elderly relatives at this point.

It is all blisteringly inadequate when measured against a very similar investigation in scale and focus going on in parallel in Scotland.
 
Last edited:

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
26,196
Look. My own cynicism leads me to question why if there was rampant TB in the greater community, they didn't cite its as a
cause of death . It would have surely been the easiest option, for them. I'm only too well aware that by asking that question that I'm danger of playing into the hands of the satanic catalpast ,and his dark machinations, but it would be good to get to the truth.
 

HereWeGoAgain

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
14,680
Fine post.

Thank you.
+ 1

Lumpy regularly writes from victim-survivor perspective and it is always enlightening to read such reflections as he makes clear there is limited if any political will to tackle this issue. It's almost always a piece of window dressing from Government perspective while kicking the can well and truly down the road.
 

StarryPlough01

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
14,739
Scots victims of child abuse in care will receive *compensation / redress from Government*


Families of deceased victims will also be eligible to apply.

18:52, 23 OCT 2018

Scots victims of child abuse in care will receive compensation from Government - Daily Record


By Lynsey Bews


A financial compensation scheme for victims of child abuse in care is to be set up by the Scottish Government.

Ministers also intend to make fast-track payments to survivors aged 70 and over, and those approaching the end of their lives through illness.


Deputy First Minister John Swinney said legislation to establish the redress scheme would be passed before the end of the current parliamentary term in 2021.

Families of deceased victims will also be eligible to apply, he said.

Meanwhile, provisions will be made in the 2019/20 budget to enable those who may not live long enough to apply to the statutory scheme, due to ill-health or age, to receive payments.


Publication - Factsheet

Financial redress for survivors of child abuse in care: information

Scottish Government ~

Financial redress for survivors of child abuse in care: information note - gov.scot


Download the information note



The Deputy First Minister of Scotland made a statement to Parliament on 23 October 2018 in which he committed to establish a financial redress scheme for survivors of abuse in care. He also offered an unreserved and heartfelt apology on behalf of the Scottish Government to all those who were abused as children while in care.

He was responding to recommendations from a Review Group which has consulted and engaged widely on redress. It recommended that a redress scheme is set up by legislation before the end of this Parliamentary term in March 2021. It also recommended that advance payments are made as soon as possible to survivors who may not live long enough to apply to the statutory scheme due to either ill-health or age.


What about survivors who will not live long enough to apply?

There will be an advance payment scheme for those survivors who may not live long enough to apply to the statutory redress scheme due to either ill-health or age.

This was one of the main recommendations of the Review Group. It also recommended that for ill-health a definition of “approaching end of life” should be used, based on advice from medical professionals, and that the age threshold should be set at 70 and over, and subject to review. This was accepted.

When will advance payments be made?

We will make advance payments as soon as we possibly can, but some months will be required to develop and set up the scheme. An update on progress will be made in January.

Are advance payments only for “pre-64” survivors?

Advance payments are for survivors of in-care abuse who are 70 and over or who are approaching the end of their life on health grounds. When the abuse took place is not a factor. Many survivors who will be eligible are likely to be “pre-64” survivors.

More information

The following links provide more information about financial redress:


full text of the Deputy First Minister’s statement and apology
recommendations and accompanying reports from the Review Group
Scottish Government policy on supporting child abuse survivors
Email enquiries to redress@gov.scot.

Key contacts

If you wish to report your abuse, contact Police Scotland on 101 or Crimestoppers on 0800 555111.

You can also contact:

the Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry on 0800 092 9300
Future Pathways on 0800 164 2005
the National Confidential Forum on 0800 121 4773
 

Lagertha

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
4,763
I'm still not clear what this is intended to achieve. There have been inquiries the various religious orders didn't pay the compensation. What is this going to achieve? Nobody will go to jail, the taxpayer shouldn't be funding this and we shouldn't pay compensation for it. What is the end game here? I've asked it many times before, but what point is there in exhuming the bodies? What's to be done with them, a Christian burial? That would be an obscenity on top of an obscene waste of money already wasted. The past is a foreign land, what was done was unforgivable but there are many urgent current issues to be dealing with and this should be left in the past were it belongs, not picked at like a scab.
 
Top