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Mass unmarked grave in Tuam for 800 babies (Second Thread)

StarryPlough01

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Hear Ye, Hear Ye...


Minister for Children Katherine Zappone informed Catherine Connolly TD 'subject to advice and approval it's her intention to publish Fifth Interim Report of Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes prior to Easter'



‘Remains Transferred To Educational Institutions For Anatomical Examination’

Bodger
at 10:20 am March 29, 2019



[Separately]… in a written reply this week to Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald, Ms Zappone also said the report includes burial arrangements “in circumstances where the [children’s] remains were initially transferred to educational institutions for anatomical examination”.


Ms Zappone stated:


It is a substantial report which focuses on the burial arrangements of persons who died while resident in these institutions.​
The report includes extensive technical reports prepared in the course of the Commission’s investigations into the burial site associated with the institution formerly known as the Tuam Mother and Baby Home and the Commission’s assessment of burial arrangements in respect of a number of other institutions within its remit.​
*It also reports on burial arrangements in circumstances where the remains were initially transferred to educational institutions for anatomical examination.*
I intend to seek formal Government approval to publish the report after I have the opportunity to discuss the report with the Commission and consult the Attorney General as appropriate. I will seek to conclude these considerations as soon as possible.​
The dignity and memory of those who died in these institutions is central to my approach to these matters. I am mindful of the expectations of their families for an early publication date of the report.​
My Department will advise representative groups, and those who have been in contact with the department on these matters, of developments prior to the publication of the report.​
Given the importance and sensitivity of these matters, I do not propose to comment further on the contents of the report in advance of it being made public.​
 


Mrs. Crotta Cliach

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To the pro-life crowd who go hysterical when talking about selling aborted babies bodies and parts for research:
Looks like the nuns did it too.
"*It also reports on burial arrangements in circumstances where the remains were initially transferred to educational institutions for anatomical examination.*
 

StarryPlough01

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To the pro-life crowd who go hysterical when talking about selling aborted babies bodies and parts for research:
Looks like the nuns did it too.
"*It also reports on burial arrangements in circumstances where the remains were initially transferred to educational institutions for anatomical examination.*

While the government concentrates on one important issue, the other, equally critical and relevant to Tuam, is the investigation into adoption in Ireland pre and post 1952 via various institutions. This needs immediate scrutiny.

Additionally, what's really going on regarding delay involved in production of the report?


………….

Adoption Act, 1952
 

StarryPlough01

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For discussion...


Special [UNITED NATIONS] Rapporteur Ms Maud de Boer-Buquicchio on the sale and exploitation of children has found significant issues with the “limited scope” of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, which still "affect Irish citizens today"


UN Special Rapporteur Ms de Boer-Buquicchio also claims Ireland has a “culture of silence” around issues of childhood sexual abuse and exploitation



‘Urgent need’ for probe of forced adoption'


By Noel Baker Senior Reporter and Social Affairs Correspondent



UN Special Rapporteur Ms Maud de Boer-Buquicchio's report says:



"It has been regularly reported that adoptions were made against the wishes of the natural mothers, or through the deception of those mothers in order to get their consent. Birth records were also falsified."

"Meanwhile those affected are advancing in age, so the need for a comprehensive national examination of forced and illegal adoptions is urgent. Failure to provide information, redress and justice for these human rights abuses perpetuates the harm to the victims."


Report's recommendations include that Ireland conducts:

(y) a “comprehensive national examination of forced and illegal adoptions, including audits of records in the hands of the State, while ensuring that individuals whose birth records were falsified have access to information and redress;"


(y) a "full investigation into the human rights violations and abuses connected with Magdalene laundries"
 

Mrs. Crotta Cliach

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The Florida Dozier Reform School for Boys, they tell me, was a notorious school and infamous for its abuse. Here we find unmarked secret graves for 82 and they believe the final count will come in at more than 100.
I mention this for a line from the newspaper story:
"Unmarked graves, by conscious design, are made to be hiding places. What stays hidden almost forgives the crime" - Jack Levine, Florida Children's Advocate.

I think we can apply that to Tuam.

 

StarryPlough01

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Hi Sentantawatchl. It's Fire2theRain (aka Starry). I was banned from politicalirish for my freedom of expression on a new Irish political discussion forum.

PI wouldn't allow my freedom of expression on their site and they have perma-banned me for my free speech elsewhere!!


 
Last edited:

StarryPlough01

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'The 5th Interim Report of Mother and Baby Homes, which is expected to be on burial arrangements made for women and children while resident will be brought to Cabinet by Minister Zappone this morning'

Commission likely to have focused on burial arrangements for those who died in the institutions




By Jennifer Bray


Ms Zappone received the report on March 15th. She has told the Dáil in parliamentary correspondence that it was a “substantial report”.

“The report includes extensive technical reports prepared in the course of the commission’s investigations into the burial site associated with the institution formerly known as the Tuam Mother and Baby Home and the commission’s assessment of burial arrangements in respect of a number of other institutions within its remit.

“It also reports on burial arrangements in circumstances where the remains were initially transferred to educational institutions for anatomical examination.”
 

StarryPlough01

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In summary


Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Katherine Zappone is seeking government approval today (16th April) for publication of:


(1) Fifth Interim Report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes;


And, quite separately...


(2) Recommendations from First Report of the Collaborative Forum for Former Residents of Mother and Baby Homes and Related Institutions


Subject to approval by cabinet, the two reports will be published.
 

StarryPlough01

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'Collaborative Forum members are dismayed by refusal to publish their Full Report on Mother and Baby Homes '


By Conall Ó Fátharta


The forum - which is comprised of former residents of the institutions and advocates and is separate from the Mother and Baby Homes Commission - began its work in July of last year and presented a report of almost 90 pages to children's minister Katherine Zappone in December.

However, Ms Zappone yesterday only published the recommendations of the forum - citing legal advice from the Attorney General. (n)

She said she intends to publish the full report after the Commission publishes its final report in February of next year.


....

…. The report is believed to be extremely critical of a number of agencies including Tusla which holds a large number of records in relation to former Mother and Baby Homes.

....

The forum has also called for the scrapping of the Government's planned Information and Tracing Bill and its replacement with an alternative “Identities and Personal Information Bill”.

....

However, the Minister stated that she will only seek to amend the current Information and Tracing Bill.



STARRY:


The Collaborative Forum attracted heavy criticism that its membership was under-represented by *biological mothers* and had a greater number of Adoptees. After all, mothers are the primary residents of the homes and the Charter stated that the focus was meant to be on them.

I researched the Collaborative Forum's 19 members and could only find ONE birth mother and no more than THREE of the remaining women who might possibly be birth mothers!! (n)




I (Starry) stated: *In all fairness, the Forum's first meeting should be scratched until such time as there is 50 percent representation of the "primary residents" _BIRTH MOTHERS_ ON THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM.*



Fintan Dunne representative of Irish First Mothers, who resigned from sham Collaborative Forum, said adopted persons and academics formed the majority of the selection panel for the Forum members ~


The 6 members appointed to the panel were:


Ms Teresa Blake SC Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission [ACADEMIC]

Ms Clodagh Malone Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors [ADOPTEE]

Ms Mari Steed Adoption Rights Alliance (based in USA) [ADOPTEE]

Dr James Gallen Dublin City University [ACADEMIC]

Prof Patricia Lundy Ulster University [ACADEMIC]

Mr Fintan Dunne Irish First Mothers [MOTHERS]


Yet the Charter for the Collaborative Forum states its focus is about the Primary Residents of Mother and Baby Homes!!


Read the Charter for Collaborative Forum ~




The purpose of the Collaborative Forum is to:

Focus on persons who were resident for a time in a mother and baby home and those with comparable experiences in a County Home


THE SELECTION PANEL APPOINTED 19 MEMBERS TO THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM


MY RESEARCH SHOWS ONLY _*ONE (1) CONFIRMED BIRTH MOTHER*_ AND NO MORE THAN THREE (3) OF THE REMAINING WOMEN WHO MIGHT POSSIBLY BE BIRTH MOTHERS


The 19 members appointed to the Forum are
:


Information is no longer available on this link / server


Rosemary Adaser (Co-founder of the group Mixed Race Irish) - admitted to St Patrick's Mother and Baby Home, Dublin, at 18 months.


Mary Lawor (Mispelling of surname) (Adoptee)
< Mary Lawlor >


Conrad Bryan (Child resident of a Mother and Baby Home)


Susan Lohan (Adoption Rights Alliance)


Carmel Cantwell Sibling. Never was a resident.
<
>


Samantha Long (Adoptee)


Alice Carroll (NO INFORMATION FOUND)


Patrick McDonagh (Born and lived in Tuam Mother and Baby Home until six and half years)


Alice Coughlan Dr Alice Coughlan (National Children's Research Centre)?
< Alice Coughlan | National Children's Research Centre >


Alice McEvoy (NO INFORMATION FOUND)


Kathy Finn (Adoptee)


Helen McGree (NO INFORMATION FOUND)


Mary Harney (NO INFORMATION FOUND)


Finbar O’Regan Comment: "My name is finbarr o regan and I was born in the county home in clonakilty west cork 1952"
< Call for inquiry into high mortality rates at mother and baby homes >


Bernie Harold Chairwoman The Natural Parents Network of Ireland, represents natural mothers and adopted people
< Calls for probe into forced adoptions >


Amanda Quigley A Psychotherapist and Educator: "She became an advocate for the Irish Foster Care Association and a member of the Irish First Mothers support group and gave evidence to the commission for reform into Mother and Baby Homes."
< https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:O6u8v9KW-iEJ:https://www.nationalist.ie/news/home/285864/remarkable-clonmel-volunteer-amanda-quigley-honoured-as-unsung-hero.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-ab >


Terri Harrison A BIRTH MOTHER
< ‘Banished babies’ make an emotional and tearful trip >


Paul Redmond (Adoptee)


Sidney Herdman "Richhill man Sidney Herdman, 48, has a foot in both camps – he is vice-chairman of the Bethany Home Survivors’ Group and chairman of the Westbank Survivors’ Group – and has a burning ambition “to bring closure to both these terrible blots on the dignity of human beings.”
< Survivors of Protestant care homes ‘left in limbo’ >


THE FORUM'S CHAIRPERSON IS GOVERNMENT APPOINTED


Other birth mothers should have been sought exhaustively to ensure 50 percent representation at least
.
 

StarryPlough01

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I miss researcher HereWeGoAgain who would help with putting up links and information.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Ah yes, the managed process and the refusal to publish reports. Seem to be something of an emerging Irish governmental trend over the last few decades.

'Legal advice'. Well it can't be because Tusla, for example, has a massively impressive reputation to protect. There is still someone working there who managed, accidentally of course, to fit up a Garda Sergeant by cutting and pasting information from one set of files into another.

It would be classically Irish for Tusla to start standing on its dignity and defending a reputation it f*cked into a bucket over the last few years all by itself.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I would be in favour of the promulgation of a law that states if a report is commissioned by use of public money then that report must be published and available to the public within a statutory period of delivery of the report.

I hate this Irish ministerial perk of being able to refuse to publish reports even though the report and the money used to compile them is public money.

I'd like to see that perk removed from Irish ministers and governments by law.
 

StarryPlough01

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Fifth Interim Report





Notice - 17th April 2019

Fifth Interim Report

Katherine Zappone TD, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has today (17th April 2019) published the Fifth Interim Report of the Commission on Mother and Baby Homes.The Fifth Interim Report examines the burial arrangements in the institutions under investigation by the Commission. The report also examines the transfer of remains to educational institutions for the purpose of anatomical examination.



 

StarryPlough01

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No evidence babies from Tuam ‘sold’ to America, Zappone says

Commission believes some people know more about burials than they have revealed





By Fiach Kelly


Some people know more about the burial of children at the mother and baby home in Tuam than was provided to a Government investigation, the Minister for Children has said.

….

The Commission states that it is clear that many of the children who died in the Tuam Home are buried in the underground chambers,” at the site, a statement from the Department of Children said.

The report states that these chambers were not a recognised burial ground or purpose-built burial chamber and that it “did not provide for the dignified interment of human remains
”.

….

The Commission is surprised by lack of knowledge about the burials on the part of Galway County Council and the Sisters of the Bon Secours. Galway County Council members and staff must have known something about the manner of burial when the home was in operation.”



When lawyers say "surprised" they mean "disbelieve," "distrust" .. incredulous, dubious....
 

StarryPlough01

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'Let us know where they are buried' - Katherine Zappone appeals for information about children at former Mother and Baby Homes


Wednesday 17 April 2019



Cormac McQuinn Political Correspondent


The report says that the Sisters of Bons Secour who ran the Tuam Home were unable to provide any information about the burials there.

The Commission also said it was surprised by the lack of knowledge about the burials on the part of Galway County Council and the Sisters of Bons Secours.

"Galway County Council members and staff must have known something about the manner of burial when the Home was in operation.
 

willow68

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Just when you think we have hit rock bottom there is more. My heartfelt sympathy with all those whose lives were destroyed by these evil ..... . How anyone still follows the catholic church is beyond me.
 

cozzy121

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Credit to broadsheet



Two structures were discovered. The location of the first structure discovered corresponds with the location of what is described as the “Sewage Tank” on the older Ordnance Survey and title maps.
This structure had at some point been deliberately filled with a large deposit of stones, almost to the upper edges…
The second structure discovered proved to be of greater significance. It is a long structure built within the boundaries of the old sewage tank.
It is divided into 20 chambers. Initially, a structure with two lids was discovered. One of the lids was completely intact and the other was partly broken.
These lids were carefully removed and were found to have covered a chamber with a small division between two sections of the chamber.
Human skeletal remains were immediately visible. Further excavations revealed more lids and, when they were removed, more human skeletal remains were found in the chambers underneath.
Samples of the remains were retrieved from within the chambers using customised telescopic equipment from the surface openings.
The Commission did not consider physically entering the individual chambers because the size of the surface access points was very confined, there was a danger that any attempt at physical entry would have compromised the many skeletal remains and entry was, in any event, not considered to be safe.
An archaeologist on the team appointed by the Commission considers that the logical intended use of the first structure discovered (described in the reports as “cesspool” or “sewage tank”) was to receive sewage from the culverts and pipes found coming from the direction of the former Home.
 


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