McWilliams: Farmers could have saved us

cozzy121

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Farmers could have saved us | David McWilliams

Nice one from David, showing how lenihan and cowen completely bottled it.
No doubt bertie's supporters will be on demanding David's death again...

Our negotiators had no idea what they were doing. Our hand was, and still is, extraordinarily strong. This deal should be ripped up by the next government and renegotiated in such away as to separate the Irish banks from the Irish state. The Republic is not the banks. The last time I checked, there was a harp on the front of my passport, not the logo of AIB.
Here is the information the next government needs to know to negotiate.
The ECB is in a hole of its own making, and should be squeezed. More than 90 per cent of the net money that the ECB is injecting into the eurozone on a daily basis to keep the banking system functioning goes to banks in Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain.
 
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Davidoff

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Another day, another brainwave.

Wasn't he the one who suggested a bank guarantee in the first place?
 

cozzy121

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Another day, another brainwave.

Wasn't he the one who suggested a bank guarantee in the first place?
Nice piece of revisionist history there, are you sure you don't want to go and blame it on lehmans as well? I'm sure bertie would be pleased - His Master's Voice
 

Mondo

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Farmers could have saved us | David McWilliams

Nice one from David, showing how lenihan and cowen completely bottled it.
No doubt bertie's supporters will be on demand David's death again...
Good post.
Wasn't the spin FF were peddling at the time that they had too keep us in the dark because they were playing some blinding tactical master strokes in their EU/IMF/ECB 'anything but bailout' talks?

Blinding alright - credit card borrowing rates and using the last of our savings to make sure we stay in the hole.
But we're funded up to Mid '11 and FF will try to squat in Dail until then too - to make sure they've wasted every last centime.

"Wake up. FF are raping Irish democracy, while the greens hold it down."
 
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Cael

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Farmers could have saved us | David McWilliams

Nice one from David, showing how lenihan and cowen completely bottled it.
No doubt bertie's supporters will be on demand David's death again...
Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...
 

Ancon

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Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...
Dont know if I should laugh or be angry at this uneducated tripe, you know nothing about the reality of trying to make an Irish farm viable, or the concept of market forces, your figures suggest that all farmers are multi-millionaires, are these figures real or imaginary?
And suggesting that you have been scammed by farmers,.......... if your the result of the Irish education system, Ireland will have more to worry about than the present economic ones.
 

Cael

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Dont know if I should laugh or be angry at this uneducated tripe, you know nothing about the reality of trying to make an Irish farm viable, or the concept of market forces, your figures suggest that all farmers are multi-millionaires, are these figures real or imaginary?
And suggesting that you have been scammed by farmers,.......... if your the result of the Irish education system, Ireland will have more to worry about than the present economic ones.
If you feel that my figures are incorrect, then you are free to post what you consider to be the correct figures.
 

sandar

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Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...
idf somoen recieves farmers dole then by definition they are not full time farmers and are not in the 44k,
land was rezoned changing its value.
if the farmer didnt get the surplus he got, the developer may have giot it, and he desreves it only very slightly more.
land value tax would have altered both
 

sandar

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Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...
figures...weell we highlighted thr smount of tax relative to proportion of gdp before and you ignored it, so Im not going to waste for time on it
 

Davidoff

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The problem I have with McWilliams is that with each new column he plucks a new idea out his ass. And many of these ideas are nuts, like the suggestion that no one should make a mortgage repayment for two years.

It beggars belief that Brian Lenihan was banging on his door two years ago looking for guidance and a bulb of garlic.

The analysis by academics like Morgan Kelly, Karl Whelan, Brian Lucey etc is more accurate, less hare-brained and just as damning.

But as Harmonica notes, those guys don't shout as loud.
 

Breadan O'Connor

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Farmers could have saved us | David McWilliams

Nice one from David, showing how lenihan and cowen completely bottled it.
No doubt bertie's supporters will be on demanding David's death again...


I would guess that most of those guys McWilliams was watching around the bidding ring were cattle dealers not full time farmers.

But he is right that those guys could drive a hard bargain!
 

Breadan O'Connor

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Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...

Certainly the gains from rezoning land resulted in insane windfall profits.

I think tthere should have been a properly graduated capital gains tax, but McCreevey cut it down to just 20%.

I would question however if all of the 13 billion you quote went to farmers, isn't it possible some of that was in fact paid to developers?
 

Cael

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figures...weell we highlighted thr smount of tax relative to proportion of gdp before and you ignored it, so Im not going to waste for time on it
No matter what way you want to look at it, that blackguard Tom Parlon got an obscene deal for farmers for land, and we are paying for it now.
 

Westlands

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Farm subsidizes for all of Europe costs every European two euros a week, with that two euros you get very cheap food. If farmers weren't subsidized then it would cost you much more. In it's self the higher cost of milk for the week without the subsidy would be more then the two euro we all pay for the cheap food. That does not take into account the cheap meat and vegetables we can buy.


Of course, it was the farmers demanding insane prices for their land that is greatly to blame for getting us into this mess in the first place. They are a small group - only 44,000 full time farmers in the 26 counties - but they got 13 billion for land in only three years between 2005 and 2008, and another 6 billion in farmers dole in the same period.

So, maybe McWilliams is right, maybe the farmers can save us - by handing back the billions they scammed off us...
 

Libero

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Not the strongest piece by McWilliams.

Although he's dead right to outline a possible strong negotiating stance for the government (one they clearly failed to pursue), he isn't straight with us about the glaring weaknesses.

Principally, how could any Irish government credibly threaten a course of action that involves collapsing its banking system (without any back-up national payments system in reserve) and killing much domestic commerce? Any person or party responsible for that faces permanent political death.

If the Irish government made such a threat, the instant response from the ECB and EU Commission would be to remark that it's a transparent bluff.

Instead of advising the government to pursue a strategy that lacks credibility, he should be ripping them apart for failing to put in place sensible, obvious measures (e.g. a back-up payments system, bank resolution legislation) that reduce dependence on the formal solvency of the existing banks, and truly allow the state to play a stronger hand in negotiations with the EU/ECB.
 

ocoonassa

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you know nothing about the reality of trying to make an Irish farm viable
lol if they're all on average depending on forty five and a half grand subsidies each year then they clearly aren't viable and know absolutely nothing about it themselves. The real dole only costs the state about fifteen grand including housing.

In the real world enterprises that are viable turn a profit and those that don't go under (unless they're landowners or banksters in which case the state apparently gets all Socialist.) It's parasitism that ranks only alongside the billions in dodged taxes but lucky for you we'd all rather bitch about why single mothers don't get a job or why teachers get paid well.
 

ocoonassa

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Farm subsidizes for all of Europe costs every European two euros a week, with that two euros you get very cheap food. If farmers weren't subsidized then it would cost you much more. In it's self the higher cost of milk for the week without the subsidy would be more then the two euro we all pay for the cheap food. That does not take into account the cheap meat and vegetables we can buy.
Nonsense. The CAP works in combination with the protectionist import tariffs to deny us food produced elsewhere much cheaper. It's a huge scam we're paying well over the odds for food and subsidising each farmer with 45 grand or so for the privilege. If the subsidy is two billion each year to Irish farmers and there are two million Irish taxpayers then the bill to each on average is nearly twenty euros per week. Cheap food? Hardly. They should scrap the CAP and end the neo-Corn Laws.
 


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