Metro North Railway Order approved by ABP

Grumpy Jack

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An Bord Pleanala has approved the Railway Order for Metro North - with conditions attached. Some of lone north of Swords not approved.

Here's link:

Pleanála:

Now the serious debate on Metro North can begin.
 


brughahaha

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What debate ..... its a vitally needed piece of infrastructure that offers value for money, employment and a possible vision of Dublin being a21st century city

Instead of debate you mean it neds to go through the process of the Irish Whinge fest that would have us all still growing potatoes on small holdings
 

Grumpy Jack

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What debate ..... its a vitally needed piece of infrastructure that offers value for money, employment and a possible vision of Dublin being a21st century city

Instead of debate you mean it neds to go through the process of the Irish Whinge fest that would have us all still growing potatoes on small holdings
Funding it. I'm 100% behind Metro and Dart Underground and have championed both on this site.

But how we pay for it is now a serious problem given the crisis in the public finances. And this report suggests the PPP process is not going as smoothly as we all thought.

Metro: End of the line? - Business & Finance
 

deepness

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I dont care what the benefits to dublin are, if this goes ahead while health services and the like are cut to make ends meet then it is nothing short of disgraceful
 

seanmacc

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I dont care what the benefits to dublin are, if this goes ahead while health services and the like are cut to make ends meet then it is nothing short of disgraceful
It is capital investment, the Health budget won't be touched to pay for it. The exchequer should pay for it if the PPP tender fails (not that I agree with PPP). Projects like this do have a multiplier effect provided most of the building materials are locally sought as well as labour.
 

deepness

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It is capital investment, the Health budget won't be touched to pay for it.
Call it what you will..Its all coming from the same pot and that pot right now is pretty empty.
WE just cant afford this now.
 

Nermal

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I dont care what the benefits to dublin are, if this goes ahead while health services and the like are cut to make ends meet then it is nothing short of disgraceful
This will literally benefit over a million people for a hundred years, health services are secondary judged against that.
 

Mushroom

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This will literally benefit over a million people for a hundred years, health services are secondary judged against that.

Assinine post. The 21st century green loonie version of 'let them eat cake'.

Joe Stalin would have been proud of you.
 

The Dude

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Dublin isn't a) densely populated enough or b) large enough to warrant this expenditure at a time like this. It's madness. It's not as if Swords and the airport is completely annexed from the city centre.
 

Nermal

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Assinine post. The 21st century green loonie version of 'let them eat cake'.

Joe Stalin would have been proud of you.
You do realise that any spending not directed at health is actually killing people, don't you? If we spent our entire GDP on health we could probably give, for instance, most cancer patients an extra few weeks. But we don't. We spend a certain fraction only, because we're not moronic enough to think life has infinite value.

It's plainly apparent to me that the comparatively miniscule spending on Metro North is of greater value than the same amount spent by the Department of Health, I'd love to know how that makes me Stalinist.
 

alonso

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Here's your debate courtesy of www.rpa.ie

No comments without reading this should be posted or entertained by readers:

Myth: Metro North will cost between €5bn and €15bn
Fact: These numbers are quite simply ridiculous and Metro North will cost far less than €5bn to build. The exact number is confidential because we are not going to tell the companies bidding to build Metro North how much money we have in the budget.
Myth: The first Luas Lines cost three times more than the original tender amounts
Fact: The Government authorised the Light Rail Project Office to enter into contracts to build the Luas Red and Green lines when the project had gone through the railway order process and when tenders had been received. This Government approval was for a budget of €775 million. Luas was implemented at a total cost of €728 million.
RPA anticipates Government approving the implementation of Metro North, when it has completed the railway order process and tenders have been received. This is the only budget that is relevant.
Myth: No cost benefit analysis of Metro North has been prepared
Fact: An independently audited cost benefit analysis has been carried out. The project benefits exceed costs by a ratio of 2:1.
A previous published review of RPA’s projections by advisors to the Oireachtas Joint Transport committee concluded that RPA was underestimating the benefits that would be delivered by Metro.
Myth: There is no economic justification for Metro North and it is a Celtic Tiger “vanity project “
Fact: Metro North will deliver a net benefit to the Irish economy of more than €1 billion. This has been verified by independent auditors.
Fact: While Metro North may have been planned in more prosperous times the economic necessity of building Metro North remains. If even modest population and employment growth occurs, as predicted by the Central Statistics Office, then Metro North will carry over 36 million passengers each year. This is based on trips to destinations such as Dublin City University, the Mater and Rotunda Hospitals, Ballymun, Swords, Dublin Airport as well as commuting by north Dublin and Fingal residents to the heart of the city.
Myth: Metro North will reduce employment in the Dublin area
Fact: Metro North will create 4000 direct construction jobs and thousands more indirect jobs in retail and in the construction supply sector.
Myth: Disruption to city centre retail for Metro North construction works will affect turnover for all city retailers and will cause firms to close.
Fact: The vast majority of the work associated with project delivery will be completed without substantial interference in the day-to-day operation of the city and its businesses. RPA has worked closely with Dublin City Council in developing a detailed traffic strategy to ensure as far as possible that is the case.
Fact: This strategy includes a number of commitments aimed at ensuring that the city centre will remain accessible and open for business at all times including:
  • Access will be maintained to all premises fronting on to the works
  • Existing pedestrian flows on the streets will be maintained where possible
  • Access will be maintained to all premises for servicing and deliveries
  • Access will be maintained to all existing multi-storey car parks
  • Information will be provided on car park access routes and space availability
Fact: Various other measures will be implemented during the construction phase to ensure that the city centre remains an attractive destination for shoppers, these include:
  • The provision of up to date information on the works in the city centre to members of the public and to businesses;
  • A marketing campaign to advertise the city as being ‘open for business as usual
  • 24/7 telephone hotline for queries and complaints.
The Metro North worksites will also use high quality attractive hoarding designed to integrate with the streetscape.
Myth: Metro North will deter tourists from visiting Dublin
Fact: There is no evidence that Metro North will have an impact on tourist numbers - indeed in the longer term Metro North will make Dublin a much more attractive city to visit. There is no evidence that the construction of Luas impacted on tourist numbers – in fact official figures show tourist spending increased by over €1 billion during the period when Luas was under construction.
Myth: Access restrictions in city centre would mean a potential loss of revenue from the tourism market of €1.45bn per annum
Fact: It is absolutely absurd to suggest that Dublin will lose its entire tourism revenue due to Metro North. Overseas tourist numbers have already fallen by over 16% and tourist revenue has declined by more than 20% in 2008 and 2009 and indications are that the decline in numbers has accelerated significantly in 2010.
There is no evidence that Metro North will in any way have a significant negative impact on tourist numbers or revenue.
Myth: The journey time will be too long from the airport to be attractive to business travellers
Fact: The journey times from the airport to city centre will be under 20 minutes with a train leaving the airport every 5 minutes – this fast, frequent, reliable and economic service will be attractive to all including business travellers and tourists.
Myth: Shoppers will not be able to drive into the city
Fact: Shoppers will continue to be able to drive in to the city and park their cars in the city centre. All off-street car parks will remain fully accessible at all times. Indeed only a very small percentage of shoppers use private cars to access the city centre for shopping. All current bus, Luas and rail services will continue to operate throughout the construction period.
Myth: The construction of Metro North will block access to retail premises such as shops and restaurants
Fact: Access will be maintained to all retail premises during construction
Myth: O’Connell Street will be closed to traffic
Fact: Two lanes of traffic will be maintained in each direction on O’Connell Street at all times during the construction of Metro North – just as at present.
Myth: No comprehensive traffic management / public transport plan has been provided by the RPA to date.
Fact: A comprehensive traffic management plan has been prepared and has been publicly available here on RPA’s website for over 18 months. This was presented in detail at the Metro North Oral Hearing. The traffic management plan was prepared after extensive engagement with Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus, business representatives and other interested parties.
Myth: St. Stephens Green will be closed for 5 years
Fact: Over 80% of St. Stephen’s Green will remain open to the public during construction and the area required to build the stop will be fully re-instated after construction. RPA has worked very closely with the Office of Public Works and the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government in developing all plans for the Green.
Myth: When the original Luas lines were being built in Dublin City centre, the turnovers of retailers and other businesses fell by between 30% to 60%.
Fact: There is no evidence, research or analysis to support this wild claim. However there is evidence to show that footfall increased by 25% when Luas went into operation. Furthermore the Retail Strategy for the GDA recognises the very positive impact Luas had on the city centre shopping districts once it was operational.
Through focused marketing and advertising RPA and other committed stakeholders will assist business by ensuring that the clear message that the city is ‘open for business as usual’ during Metro North construction will be delivered loudly and clearly.
Retailers takings have fallen by 25% on average over the 30 months to July 2010 and retail sales would appear to have declined further since then. The longer term recovery and growth of the central Dublin retail district will be improved by Metro North making the city centre more accessible to a significant number of people.
Myth: The jobs on Metro North will be outsourced from abroad.
Fact: While a number of specialised jobs may be outsourced, it is expected that the vast majority of jobs on Metro North will go to Irish workers, as was the case with the Dublin Port Tunnel project.
Myth: Metro North is highly unlikely to break even on running costs.
Fact: The transport modelling carried out by RPA and audited independently on behalf of the National Transport Authority shows that the operating revenue on Metro North is likely to exceed the operating costs. This would repeat the success of the Luas which is one of the few public transport systems in Europe which operates without the need for a subvention.
Myth: Traffic congestion during metro north works will cost the city centre between €0.91bn and €1.97bn
Fact: The vast majority of the work associated with project delivery will be completed without substantial interference in the day-to-day operation of the city and its businesses. The claimed costs are ridiculous and unsupported by any proper analysis.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Yet another one to join T2, the Conference Centre, the Criminal Courts and all the rest



We seem to have regressed back to the Mercantalist era before the industrial revolution where the elite built ostentatious buildings while the peasants starved to death.
 

alonso

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Cassandra Syndrome

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This will literally benefit over a million people for a hundred years, health services are secondary judged against that.
Should you not have said a thousand years? Thats the type of language that we can easily identify with the green agenda.
 

alonso

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Yet another one to join T2, the Conference Centre, the Criminal Courts and all the rest



We seem to have regressed back to the Mercantalist era before the industrial revolution where the elite built ostentatious buildings while the peasants starved to death.
so we should wait til we desperately need things, when economic growth is being stunted by infrastructural deficits and until construction costs rise again, before we build anything????

Metro north is a white elephant in the same way as the DART (doubled now in capacity) and the 2 Luas lines were.

That's good financial logic there CS. If I ever wanna p1ss around for a decade and then waste billions I'll give you a shout
 

alonso

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Should you not have said a thousand years? Thats the type of language that we can easily identify with the green agenda.
What's this got to do with the Green agenda???? Rail predates the Green Party in Ireland by a good century and a half!!!!
 

brughahaha

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Yet another one to join T2, the Conference Centre, the Criminal Courts and all the rest


We seem to have regressed back to the Mercantalist era before the industrial revolution where the elite built ostentatious buildings while the peasants starved to death.
One obituary from any newspaper where the cause of death is listed as forced starvation please :rolleyes:

Same bull over the port tunnel (which has directly resulted in the increased use of the Dublin shoreline from Fairview to Sutton by families and cyclists by removing the dangerous bottleneck at Fairview .... improving citizens quality of life no end.... but God forbid we Irish should have modern and quality services or infrastructure ) Made the city centre far more pleasant too ... especially the quays ..... yet had no end of whingers complaining about it
 

cferrie

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In fact An Bord Pleanala have made some significant improvements to the scheme by ordering the relocation of the depot and Park & Ride carpark to Dardistown where it will integrate better with other major transport infrastructure, Dublin Airport; M50; and the future Metro West, and cutting short the northernmost section of the line where there the population is unlikely to reach levels where a Metro line would be viable.

Critics of the cost of the project should note that the PPP process limits the initial capital expenditure by the state and shifts it to the successful tenderer so any claims that this project is drawing funding away from the Healthcare budget are erroneous. Every major infrastructural project that takes place in this country is consistently attacked by the "Won't-someone-think-of-the-children" brigade who's shortsightedness and narrowmindedness would lead us to a state of stagnation.
 


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