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Michael Collins: An Irish hero?


Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
In my opinion he most be the most over-rated and over-exaggerated figure in Irish history. During the so called War of Independence he led a small but effective counter-intelligence unit, assassins if you will. He adapted well to the urban guerillia war which was the only way possible to defeat superior military forces.

However he was wined and dined by the British elites, fell for their mind games and tricked by Lloyd George's rhetoric. While he clearly should have not been sent to negociate the treaty as he had neither the intellect nor the political experience, he still came back with the worst possible deal that could only lead to bitter civil war and partition. No treaty would have been better.

As soon as it became obvious that the majority of the people who fought against the tans and British army would not stand for it, the treaty should have been ripped up. Better to fight the imperialists than have brothers turn against eachother. Collins was utterly clueless in the time between the treaty being signed and the beggining of the civil war. He misjudged the revolutionary spirit of the IRA thinking they would accept such a blatant sell out because it was a "stepping stone". It's a pity he didn't have his brains blown out the minute he got back from England. The whole purpose of independence was so that the Irish people would have a better quality of life without British imperialism. The free state accepted British imperialism by continuing to pay British landlords rents for land we owned ourselves. The free state was no better economically for Irish people as it did nothing but replace British oppression with Irish oppression. Maybe they painted the post boxes green but they did nothing that would improve life for Irish people. In fact Ireland was worse off economically in 1930 than 1900.

And what did the treaty bring to Ireland? Nothing but poverty, the abandonment of our brothers in the north, civil war, executions, totalitarian government from people like Kevin O'Higgins, the continued dominance of the catholic church over our lives, oppression of women etc
 

The Collective.

Active member
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
159
You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.

Kevin O'Higgins was a hero.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
The Collective. said:
You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.

Kevin O'Higgins was a hero.
No one deserved a bullet more than O'Higgins. He was a thug and a murderer who ordered death of political prisoners and innocent men.
 

Respvblica

Active member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
212
Harpo said:
The Collective. said:
You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.

Kevin O'Higgins was a hero.
No one deserved a bullet more than O'Higgins. He was a thug and a murderer who ordered death of political prisoners and innocent men.
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
 

meriwether

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
12,604
The Dail voted for the treaty.

The people voted for the treaty in a referendum.

The end.
 

Clanrickard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,045
NeilW said:
Schools finish early today?
I don't think Harpo is in school. I think he finished when he was 14 and now sits at home spouting rubbish to give his sad life meaning. The fact that a question mark is before the nam of the Big Fella is proof positive of his stupidity.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
meriwether said:
The Dail voted for the treaty.

The people voted for the treaty in a referendum.

The end.
I bet you support re-running the Lisbon treaty
 

Jozer

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
57
Harpo said:
the majority of the people who fought against the tans and British army would not stand for it,
Not true. The IRA was split 50/50 over the treaty. Ireland overall was 2/1 in favour.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
Jozer said:
Harpo said:
the majority of the people who fought against the tans and British army would not stand for it,
Not true. The IRA was split 50/50 over the treaty. Ireland overall was 2/1 in favour.
The IRA was split 50/50? Give me a Break! At least 70% were against.

And yes the Irish people were intimidated into voting yes by propaganda saying the brits would come and massacre us if they didn't vote for it. The catholic church also played it's usual shameful role. As soon as the church received assurances from the free staters that they would be allowed to continue their monolpoly on education, juvenile dentention, workhouses etc they came out and spread their pro-treaty lies.
 

DOD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
Harpo said:
In my opinion he most be the most over-rated and over-exaggerated figure in Irish history. During the so called War of Independence he led a small but effective counter-intelligence unit, assassins if you will. He adapted well to the urban guerillia war which was the only way possible to defeat superior military forces.

However he was wined and dined by the British elites, fell for their mind games and tricked by Lloyd George's rhetoric. While he clearly should have not been sent to negociate the treaty as he had neither the intellect nor the political experience, he still came back with the worst possible deal that could only lead to bitter civil war and partition. No treaty would have been better.

As soon as it became obvious that the majority of the people who fought against the tans and British army would not stand for it, the treaty should have been ripped up. Better to fight the imperialists than have brothers turn against eachother. Collins was utterly clueless in the time between the treaty being signed and the beggining of the civil war. He misjudged the revolutionary spirit of the IRA thinking they would accept such a blatant sell out because it was a "stepping stone". It's a pity he didn't have his brains blown out the minute he got back from England. The whole purpose of independence was so that the Irish people would have a better quality of life without British imperialism. The free state accepted British imperialism by continuing to pay British landlords rents for land we owned ourselves. The free state was no better economically for Irish people as it did nothing but replace British oppression with Irish oppression. Maybe they painted the post boxes green but they did nothing that would improve life for Irish people. In fact Ireland was worse off economically in 1930 than 1900.

And what did the treaty bring to Ireland? Nothing but poverty, the abandonment of our brothers in the north, civil war, executions, totalitarian government from people like Kevin O'Higgins, the continued dominance of the catholic church over our lives, oppression of women etc
Hard to disagree with anything there and I come from the town that has made an industry out of exploiting the name of Michael Collins.
 

DOD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
Harpo said:
Jozer said:
Harpo said:
the majority of the people who fought against the tans and British army would not stand for it,
Not true. The IRA was split 50/50 over the treaty. Ireland overall was 2/1 in favour.
The IRA was split 50/50? Give me a Break! At least 70% were against.
It depends on what you are counting, if you mean IRA leaders, then you are probably right, however in the organisation as a whole, 50/50 is probably about right. Even with british guns, I don't think a Free State army which only had 30% backing of the pre-treaty IRA, could have won the civil war with the relative ease that it did .
 

DOD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
The Collective. said:
You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.
You should be ashamed that you don't know how to say 'your country's history'

If it wasn't about the treaty mr Genius what was it about. I would accept that partition wasn't the main reason, but the other terms of the treaty certainly were the main causes of the war.The major objection would probably have been the oath. Before you say that wasn't worth starting a war over, remember the time we are talking about.
 

DOD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
meriwether said:
The Dail voted for the treaty.

The people voted for the treaty in a referendum.

The end.
Actually they didn't, they voted in an election whereby the people elected were declaring themselves to be pro-treaty, not necessarily the same thing.
 

angelcity

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
12
Hope they let michael collins bear the names he likes and their families surname and people that dont have business with their family continue to fight them and install names of their desired on michael collins though and they even want to spell his name for him despite the fact that he is an irish hero take it or you let go ?
 

The Collective.

Active member
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
159
DOD said:
The Collective. said:
You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.
You should be ashamed that you don't know how to say 'your country's history'

If it wasn't about the treaty mr Genius what was it about. I would accept that partition wasn't the main reason, but the other terms of the treaty certainly were the main causes of the war.The major objection would probably have been the oath. Before you say that wasn't worth starting a war over, remember the time we are talking about.
Attacking someones grammar or spelling, is low.

Collins and Dev(il), agreed to an election pact with a coalition between pro- and ant-treaty Sinn. Pro-treaty would win 4/7 seats, anti-treaty would win 3/7, and the treaty would passed. But Labour and the Farmers contested those elections, leaving anti-treaty side only 28%, unhappy with result, started murdering civilians. Labour won about 13% of the vote, the were pro-treaty, Farmers won 5%, they were pro-treaty. Pro-treaty Sinn Fein won 45%. Thats 63% in total. Prior to the elctions, anti-tretay side attempted to murder Labour and Farmers candidates. Dev was anti-democracy.
 

angelcity

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
12
The Collective. said:
DOD said:
[quote="The Collective.":32asslfd]You dont have a clue about Irish history. Anyone who thinks the civil war was over the treaty, is a complete idiot. You should ashamed that you dont know you countries history.
You should be ashamed that you don't know how to say 'your country's history'

If it wasn't about the treaty mr Genius what was it about. I would accept that partition wasn't the main reason, but the other terms of the treaty certainly were the main causes of the war.The major objection would probably have been the oath. Before you say that wasn't worth starting a war over, remember the time we are talking about.
Attacking someones grammar or spelling, is low.

Collins and Dev(il), agreed to an election pact with a coalition between pro- and ant-treaty Sinn. Pro-treaty would win 4/7 seats, anti-treaty would win 3/7, and the treaty would passed. But Labour and the Farmers contested those elections, leaving anti-treaty side only 28%, unhappy with result, started murdering civilians. Labour won about 13% of the vote, the were pro-treaty, Farmers won 5%, they were pro-treaty. Pro-treaty Sinn Fein won 45%. Thats 63% in total. Prior to the elctions, anti-tretay side attempted to murder Labour and Farmers candidates. Dev was anti-democracy.[/quote:32asslfd]

I dont think the way our tax is been spent on interpreter since my inception in the state is nothing to comeby, however when the FF form the government they must has seen what will come their ways if they have invlove some nazis into their means.

Did you want to tell us again that we do not understand the English language of an exams after exausting every avenue, is there any benefit for failing people by all means not genue to your family ?

So did anyone want to tell us that they dont know the spelling of for example Colm, Colin, Callum, and indeed Collins Sometime so what do you want from black people ?
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
22,911
Was Collins an Irish Hero ................damm right he was

Was de Valera an Irish Hero................damm right he was

I will happily honour the people who fought for our country........what happened after Independence is another story but doesn't make them less Heroes in my eyes.
 

angelcity

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
12
odie1kanobe said:
Was Collins an Irish Hero ................damm right he was

Was de Valera an Irish Hero................damm right he was

I will happily honour the people who fought for our country........what happened after Independence is another story but doesn't make them less Heroes in my eyes.
Thank you for that, and this is isn't the time of martin luther king juniour of haven a dream that they killed off.
 
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