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Minister Shatter defends military equipment contracts to Israel


Dr Pat

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Oct 9, 2009
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According to a report in today's Sunday Independent, our Minister for Defence states that Israel are entitled to
tender and win contracts for equipment for our Defence Forces.

Shatter won't rule out buying more weapons from Israel - National News - Independent.ie

An extract from the report in the Sunday Independent states:

'The Israeli arms industry has done well in securing conracts in Ireland.

In one of the more recent successes a company based in Haifa, Elbit Systems Ltd, won a multi-million euro contract to supply surveillance equipment for a new fleet of RG-32M armoured vehicles built in South Africa.'

and then goes on to list several other military linked contracts secured by Israeli companies.

Shatter stated according to the newspaper 'that central to the procedures was the requirement to allow fair competition between suppliers after tenders are advertised on the e-tenders website or the European Defence Agency's electronic bulletin board.

"Such tender competitions are open to any individual company or country in accordance with the terms of all UN, OSCE, and EU arms embargos or restrictions. "There are no such restrictions or embargoes in place on Israel or Israeli companies," Mr Shatter said.'

I personally feel very uncomfortable with this type of reasoning.

It seems to ignores the fact that Israel 'defence forces' do not apparently have any qualms in using false Irish passports in operations to assassinate their perceived opponents. Is our Minister, for reasons best known to himself, blind to Israel's questionable and highly controversial actions?
 

former wesleyan

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Timhorgan in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
 

southwestkerry

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Would you prefer the Russians.
SwK
 

Ribeye

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Redirect your honour,

We're buying armoured cars for what exactly???

Defence forces :):):)

Defend us from what,

The country has already been occupied, again,

And all the twits in uniform were concerned about was how it might affect their pensions:)

Fckn wind up the joke military, total waste of money!
 

Hitch 22

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According to a report in today's Sunday Independent, our Minister for Defence states that Israel are entitled to
tender and win contracts for equipment for our Defence Forces.

Shatter won't rule out buying more weapons from Israel - National News - Independent.ie
If the Israelis make the weapons and equipment our own troops need for the job they do, then why not?

Israel and Ireland have proud historical links. Both became fully independent of Britain around the same time and both countries fought an armed struggle against British rule. Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog born 1898 in Poland was a native Irish speaker and was the chief Rabbi of the Irish Free State from 1922 to 1936 and he was a fluent Gaelic speaker heavily involved with Sinn Féin. He later became the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of the British Mandate of Palestine (1936–1948). His son Chaim who was born in Ireland and educated in Dublin became the 6th President of Israel. His grandson Isaac Herzog is a member of the Knesset.

It seems to ignores the fact that Israel 'defence forces' do not apparently have any qualms in using false Irish passports in operations to assassinate their perceived opponents. Is our Minister, for reasons best known to himself, blind to Israel's questionable and highly controversial actions?
Israel killed Mahmoud al-Mabhouh because he was a founder, a commander and a weapons buyer for the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, a terrorist group allied with Hamas. He was killed in Dubai because he was meeting with members of the Al-Quds Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards to obviously arrange for more arms to be supplied to Hamas.
Ireland would do exactly the same if our country was under attack from terrorists.
 
Last edited:

Troy_337

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Éireann go Brách

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Redirect your honour,

We're buying armoured cars for what exactly???

...cut...
The requirement for LTAVs was identified in order to fill a capability gap that existed between soft skinned vehicles and Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs). The need to deploy small groups in command, escort and specialist tasks when threat levels are elevated renders soft skinned vehicles inadequate. Similarly, the size and profile of APCs make them inappropriate for use in certain situations, such as built up areas with narrow streets. Therefore the need for a robust, flexible, multi-role vehicle to complement the existing APC fleet was recognised.

Peace Support Operations are becoming increasingly complex and present many and varied threats to troops. Force protection was one of the primary considerations in the procurement of the vehicles. The RG32M provides substantial levels of protection from small arms fire, shell fragments, Roadside bombs and landmines, thereby enhancing the protection of our personnel. The vehicle combines speed with tactical versatility. It is lighter than an APC and is therefore more maneuverable and easier to transport by air.

Training on the LTAV will commence shortly with an initial priority of equipping Ireland's commitment to the EU Nordic Battlegroup of 2011. The Defence Forces will commit 160 personnel to the Battlegroup, which will remain on standby for short-notice deployments around the world from January to July 2011. The Irish contribution comprises an Intelligence Surveillance and Target Acquisition (ISTAR) company and headquarters element.


Four different variants of the vehicle have been purchased: A Standard variant which incorporates a protected weapons station; An Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) variant fitted with specialist surveillance equipment; A Surveillance and Target Acquisition (STA) variant which incorporates enhanced Fire Control systems and a Communications Information and Signals (CIS) variant which is fitted with advanced communications systems.
 

Frank Galton

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Odd how the questions on this one didn't go to Paul Kehoe, who is the minister of state with responsibility for defence. For some reason, the meeja pursue Shatter on Israel questions ...
 

Ribeye

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The requirement for LTAVs was identified in order to fill a capability gap that existed between soft skinned vehicles and Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs). The need to deploy small groups in command, escort and specialist tasks when threat levels are elevated renders soft skinned vehicles inadequate. Similarly, the size and profile of APCs make them inappropriate for use in certain situations, such as built up areas with narrow streets. Therefore the need for a robust, flexible, multi-role vehicle to complement the existing APC fleet was recognised.

Peace Support Operations are becoming increasingly complex and present many and varied threats to troops. Force protection was one of the primary considerations in the procurement of the vehicles. The RG32M provides substantial levels of protection from small arms fire, shell fragments, Roadside bombs and landmines, thereby enhancing the protection of our personnel. The vehicle combines speed with tactical versatility. It is lighter than an APC and is therefore more maneuverable and easier to transport by air.

Training on the LTAV will commence shortly with an initial priority of equipping Ireland's commitment to the EU Nordic Battlegroup of 2011. The Defence Forces will commit 160 personnel to the Battlegroup, which will remain on standby for short-notice deployments around the world from January to July 2011. The Irish contribution comprises an Intelligence Surveillance and Target Acquisition (ISTAR) company and headquarters element.


Four different variants of the vehicle have been purchased: A Standard variant which incorporates a protected weapons station; An Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) variant fitted with specialist surveillance equipment; A Surveillance and Target Acquisition (STA) variant which incorporates enhanced Fire Control systems and a Communications Information and Signals (CIS) variant which is fitted with advanced communications systems.
Whats that, a fckn press release?

Tks for the info, but how about this question,

Why the fck are we sending toy soldiers to defend people foreign nations, when our own country is being run from Berlin?

It's laughable,

And anyway, a well organised book club could rip the Irish military to shreds!
 

shrubage

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It should be pointed out that unlike so many other Government procurement contracts, no one has been able to criticise recent defence contracts on either cost or effectiveness. In many ways they're a model for what other government departments should be doing.

I'm not really interested in defending Israel (my own view is that they're their own worst enemies), but the article in the OP correctly stated that there are no UN approved sanctions in place against Israel, so legally we'd be on pretty shakey ground by refusing to buy equipment from them.

Something that personally annoys me is the for years the Irish military were paying over the odds, by giving preference to the UK and Sweden when sourcing equipment.
 

ObsessiveMathsFreak

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I personally feel very uncomfortable with this type of reasoning.
I personally feel very uncomfortable with the type of innuendo typified by this thread.
It seems to ignores the fact that Israel 'defence forces' do not apparently have any qualms in using false Irish passports in operations to assassinate their perceived opponents. Is our Minister, for reasons best known to himself, blind to Israel's questionable and highly controversial actions?
The contracts are with companies in Israel, not with the military. You may regard this as a fine line, but the laws governing trade and commerce don't. The Israeli's actually make quite a lot of equipment. It's also worth noting in this regard that this country actually makes certain types of military equipment for export, so it's not a business exclusively connected with domestic armed forces.

Now, if you're in favour of an Israeli boycott, or are against the international arms trade, or are in favour of domestic arms production, then you might well object to this country buying arms from Israel. Personally, given the state of the public finances, I am against this country buying any new equipment at all seeing how little we need to use it. But while there isn't (yet) either a boycott, arms trade restrictions, or lack of a budget, Israeli companies are as entitled to bid as anyone else.

What I really object to here is yet another sly insinuation that Shatter's loyalties might be in question, based solely on the (always unstated) fact that he is Jewish. This type of baiting is simply disgusting, all the more so because of its frequency in what should be 21st century Ireland. There's a rump of people in this country who just don't seem to accept that a Minister can be Jewish. (Is this still the case for Protestant Minister's too?)

I'm not Shatter's biggest fan, owing to the fact that he dropped the UORR legislation and looks set to fudge the PIA bill, but he is by no means the worst Minister in the government and even the worst Minister doesn't deserve this kind of disrespect. I'm sick of racism and sectarianism in this country, and its yet another disappointment to see people and indeed newspapers so blithely engaging in it.

The biggest irony is that INM and most others wouldn't give tuppence about arms contracts from Israel or anywhere else in normal circumstances. Why is it we can only talk about something in this country when we are at our worst?
 

Hitch 22

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Something that personally annoys me is the for years the Irish military were paying over the odds, by giving preference to the UK and Sweden when sourcing equipment.
The Israeli Tavor TAR-21 rifle would a much better value replacement for the Steyr AUG.

It is smaller and shorter but has the same fire power of the M-16 and other assault rifles and is as accurate as a sniper rifle.

[video=youtube;0N7X0pvhQ4w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7X0pvhQ4w[/video]

Israeli helmets have already been protecting Irish noggins for years!:lol:
 
Last edited:

Hewson

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We bought South African APCs. I wonder if the apartheid system was still in place there to the same extent that Israel practises its own brand of apartheid against Palestinians, would we still have bought them?

We should buy nothing produced in Israel if we can avoid it. That should go without saying.
 

Ribeye

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It should be pointed out that unlike so many other Government procurement contracts, no one has been able to criticise recent defence contracts on either cost or effectiveness. In many ways they're a model for what other government departments should be doing.

I'm not really interested in defending Israel (my own view is that they're their own worst enemies), but the article in the OP correctly stated that there are no UN approved sanctions in place against Israel, so legally we'd be on pretty shakey ground by refusing to buy equipment from them.

Something that personally annoys me is the for years the Irish military were paying over the odds, by giving preference to the UK and Sweden when sourcing equipment.
"a model" - wasting taxpayers money on Action Man jeeps, so that we can go round the world sticking our noses into other peoples business wearing blue helmets supplied by the child murdering UN,

Some model!
 

Dr Pat

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10,219
I personally feel very uncomfortable with the type of innuendo typified by this thread.

The contracts are with companies in Israel, not with the military. You may regard this as a fine line, but the laws governing trade and commerce don't. The Israeli's actually make quite a lot of equipment. It's also worth noting in this regard that this country actually makes certain types of military equipment for export, so it's not a business exclusively connected with domestic armed forces.

Now, if you're in favour of an Israeli boycott, or are against the international arms trade, or are in favour of domestic arms production, then you might well object to this country buying arms from Israel. Personally, given the state of the public finances, I am against this country buying any new equipment at all seeing how little we need to use it. But while there isn't (yet) either a boycott, arms trade restrictions, or lack of a budget, Israeli companies are as entitled to bid as anyone else.

What I really object to here is yet another sly insinuation that Shatter's loyalties might be in question, based solely on the (always unstated) fact that he is Jewish. This type of baiting is simply disgusting, all the more so because of its frequency in what should be 21st century Ireland. There's a rump of people in this country who just don't seem to accept that a Minister can be Jewish. (Is this still the case for Protestant Minister's too?)

I'm not Shatter's biggest fan, owing to the fact that he dropped the UORR legislation and looks set to fudge the PIA bill, but he is by no means the worst Minister in the government and even the worst Minister doesn't deserve this kind of disrespect. I'm sick of racism and sectarianism in this country, and its yet another disappointment to see people and indeed newspapers so blithely engaging in it.

The biggest irony is that INM and most others wouldn't give tuppence about arms contracts from Israel or anywhere else in normal circumstances. Why is it we can only talk about something in this country when we are at our worst?
Are oo a, 'horror of horrors', a PROTESTANT? you are being ridiculous.
 

Catalpast

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If the Israelis make the weapons and equipment our own troops need for the job they do, then why not?

Israel and Ireland have proud historical links. Both became fully independent of Britain around the same time and both countries fought an armed struggle against British rule. Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog born 1898 in Poland was a native Irish speaker and was the chief Rabbi of the Irish Free State from 1922 to 1936 and he was a fluent Gaelic speaker heavily involved with Sinn Féin. He later became the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of the British Mandate of Palestine (1936–1948). His son Chaim who was born in Ireland and educated in Dublin became the 6th President of Israel. His grandson Isaac Herzog is a member of the Knesset.



Israel killed Mahmoud al-Mabhouh because he was a founder, a commander and a weapons buyer for the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, a terrorist group allied with Hamas. He was killed in Dubai because he was meeting with members of the Al-Quds Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards to obviously arrange for more arms to be supplied to Hamas.
Ireland would do exactly the same if our country was under attack from terrorists.
Ireland would do exactly the same if our country was under attack from terrorists.

I seriously doubt it

I think we should buy from Israeli suppliers if they have what we need

But only if Israel apologies for its gross violation of International Protocol in using fake Irish passports
 

Hitch 22

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I seriously doubt it
Why the hell not?

I think we should buy from Israeli suppliers if they have what we need
We are on the same page.

But only if Israel apologies for its gross violation of International Protocol in using fake Irish passports
Foreign governments send agents with legends and fake identities and fake passports to spy on each other all the time. Tourists and students who visit Ireland spy on our country all the time. The British and French are officially "friends" but they spy on each other intensely.
Ireland probably spies on Israel.
The Catholic Church is the greatest intelligence and spy network on the planet and superior at intelligence gathering than the CIA.
So Israeli sins are really minor.
 

Suttree

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"a model" - wasting taxpayers money on Action Man jeeps, so that we can go round the world sticking our noses into other peoples business wearing blue helmets supplied by the child murdering UN,

Some model!
You're an idiot.
 

Heligoland

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Foreign governments send agents with legends and fake identities and fake passports to spy on each other all the time.
So that's alright then.

I hope you enjoy the suspicion your Irish passport causes now when you travel.
 

Hewson

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Why the hell not?

I think we should buy from Israeli suppliers if they have what we need

Foreign governments send agents with legends and fake identities and fake passports to spy on each other all the time.

The British spy on the French and vice versa. Russian agents spy in the US and US agents spy in Russia. Japan and China spy on each other.

I am certain Ireland does it too.
Were you always a pillock?

'Spies' are a dime a dozen. Using the forged passport of a citizen of a neutral state to commit murder is something very, very different.

You can see that, can't you?
 
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