Misconceptions about Socialism, and what it would mean in Ireland.

Luigi Vampa

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Until this current government wrecked our country and our economy, I had absolutely no interest in Socialism. However, recent events in Ireland have changed my opinion completely.

To kick this discussion off I offer the following :

Socialism, in plain terms, is an economic system in which the members of society, own and control major industries and the economy, rather than a few exclusive private individuals.

Real Socialism has nothing to do with the regimes in Stalin's USSR, North Korea etc. where corrupt states and their dictators own and control industry and the economy.

Real Socialism is, by definition, is totally democratic. It is economic as well as political democracy, where as at best the current capitalism in Ireland offers political semi-democracy, with zero economic democracy.

Our media, instead of being controlled by, and serving, the general public, is controlled by an exclusive set of private individuals, who in turn use it to control the public and our economy.

Real Socialism entails that the economy should then be run by councils of democratically elected representatives of workers and consumers at all levels of the economy. Instead of being run on the basis of what will maximize profit for a super-rich minority, the economy should be planned to meet the needs of all people—in employment, education, nutrition, health care, housing, transportation, leisure, and cultural development.
 
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Munion

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What Socialist America Will Look Like

An interesting speech from James P.Cannon on what a socialist America would look like.

My own criticisms of socialism stem not from the goal, which by Cannon's speech sounds wonderful, but that it cannot be achieved. All attempts at achieving socialism have resulted in millions suffering and dieing. The majority of people aren't willing to risk their lives for it.
 

bormotello

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Real Socialism is, by definition, is totally democratic.
And totally inefficient, because any minor problem will require voting and approval from all workers
This is why Trotskyism failed in USSR.
Workers were spending more time on meeting instead of actual work
 

sumlulu

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Real Socialism entails that the economy should then be run by councils of democratically elected representatives of workers and consumers at all levels of the economy. Instead of being run on the basis of what will maximize profit for a super-rich minority, the economy should be planned to meet the needs of all people—in employment, education, nutrition, health care, housing, transportation, leisure, and cultural development.
There is the problem right there, you are trusting that these demographically elected representatives will have anything but their own self serving interest at heart. In Ireland??? Seriously?
 

BlackLion

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We should stop fighting over which side of the Political spectrum gets in charge and use the strengths of both. just make sure that no far-left or far-right get into power. we need to work with are left and right brothers and sisters for the future of ireland.
 

Luigi Vampa

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There is the problem right there, you are trusting that these demographically elected representatives will have anything but their own self serving interest at heart. In Ireland??? Seriously?
You're in FF/FG mode.

Think of your own workplace and community, and who you would elect to be the proper managers, not the gombeens who volunteer for ego and exclusive personal profit reasons under the current system. Worker and community co-operatives. E.g. think credit unions and co-op banks, not FF and Anglo.
 

arcadeparade

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I see socialism as the economic part of democracy. Instead of the majority of wealth being controlled by a minority for their own profit, what if the wealth was democratically controlled and used in a planned way to give people the things they need, no matter how rich or poor they are, or what country they live in?

When you strip away all the stereotypes and myths about socialism it's really as simple as that.
 

bormotello

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Scandinavian countries such as Sweden, Demark etc, have come very close to being totally socialist, have a stable successful economies as a result.
Scandinavian countries got stable economies first, and only then they switched to social democracies
 

Luigi Vampa

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We should stop fighting over which side of the Political spectrum gets in charge and use the strengths of both. just make sure that no far-left or far-right get into power. we need to work with are left and right brothers and sisters for the future of ireland.
The far right are in power, and dressed themselves up as centre right. That's the problem.
 

NunoF

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Socialism, in plain terms, is an economic system in which the members of society, own and control major industries and the economy, rather than a few exclusive private individuals.



No, it is not. It never was, and it never will be.

Socialism is a political system where the government takes ownership of all assets and means of production and every detail of the life of every citizen is supposed to be planned by the central government.

Individual freedom becomes an obstacle to the government and thus must be crushed. Decisions about what you can and can not have are taken by the public servants in power and they decide exactly what each citizen gets. In fact, socialism and individual freedom are mutually exclusive, since if one's left free to achieve whatever he is capable of then he/she must either be stopped or the results of his/hers endeavors must be immediately confiscated by the state.

In practice the centralization of power in the hands of so few just attracts the most corrupt and the result is what was seen time and time again.

if you want to Socialism why not immigrate to Cuba? They have it there.
 

SilverLining

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There is the problem right there, you are trusting that these demographically elected representatives will have anything but their own self serving interest at heart. In Ireland??? Seriously?
Sounds like a dream or a nightmare ? If it worked run with honesty and integrity, it would be wonderful. May sound like a fantasy, but it just might be worth working towards. We should no longer tolerate or vote for candidates who put their own self-interest and local-issues before the national interest. Self interest has no place in finding solutions for our nation. Local issues are the work of councillors not members of a national parliament.

People tend to shy away for voting for left of centre candidates nationally. They are heavily influenced by a right wing media spreading the message of fear of Reds-under-the-Bed and Iron-Curtain-Frightening-Tales which they happily pedal on behalf of their Tea-Party-Loving Blueshirted neo-PD/Libertas Masters. Appealing to voters is the most important way for this to change. Voter education seems to be a major part of this as well. People don't seem to care about the purpose of a national parliament when it comes to putting their pencil marks on the ballot paper.
 

stringjack

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I see socialism as the economic part of democracy. Instead of the majority of wealth being controlled by a minority for their own profit, what if the wealth was democratically controlled and used in a planned way to give people the things they need, no matter how rich or poor they are, or what country they live in?

When you strip away all the stereotypes and myths about socialism it's really as simple as that.
Why wouldn't it be the case that the wealth would be controlled by a majority for its own profit, as opposed to by a minority for its own profit?
 

NunoF

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Scandinavian countries got stable economies first, and only then they switched to social democracies
And some want almost bankrupt when they tried socialism.
 

Conrad

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Scandinavian countries got stable economies first, and only then they switched to social democracies
A very good point there. Even going by a marxist perpspective a country needs to be propperly industrialised before it can be propperly socialised. I don't think Ireland is sufficiently industrialised to survive by itself. Socialism can only be successful if it is set in motion by a manjor industrial country, a fact well known by Lenin who intended to hold Russia in place until Germnay turned socialist. Same case scenario exists today in my opinion, a socialist Ireland cannot be successful outside of a socialist Europe/Germany/France/Britain.
 

stringjack

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No, it is not. It never was, and it never will be.

Socialism is a political system where the government takes ownership of all assets and means of production and every detail of the life of every citizen is supposed to be planned by the central government.
Fine. Then what people in this thread are talking about is 'schmocialism'. Now go away.
 

arcadeparade

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Why wouldn't it be the case that the wealth would be controlled by a majority for its own profit, as opposed to by a minority for its own profit?
Wouldnt that be so much worse than where we are now. :D

That is such a strange question, you're asking me if countries were socialist, wouldn't they then use the wealth to help the majority rather than the minority? Thats kind of the whole point!
 

bormotello

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The far right are in power, and dressed themselves up as centre right.
if it would be far right, then PS pay and welfare benefits would be slashed by 75% already and we would have zero deficit
 

bormotello

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Socialism can only be successful if it is set in motion by a manjor industrial country, a fact well known by Lenin who intended to hold Russia in place until Germnay turned socialist.
This is why Stalin diced to go for dictatorship in order to industrialize USSR befor Trotsky idea of world revolution will work

Same case scenario exists today in my opinion, a socialist Ireland cannot be successful outside of a socialist Europe/Germany/France/Britain.
Another option is to let right wingers industrialize country
 


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