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Mobile Phone Usage & Driving


Abacus

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
763
What evidence do the Gardai have to have before I can be prosecuted for using a MobPhone when driving ? There don't seem to be many of these cases or am I wrong about that ?
Is it sufficient that the Garda sees my hand up to the side of my face as I drive past ?
Is that kind of suspicion compelling evidence ?

Will he be believed because he is a Garda and I as Joe Soap am unworthy of belief ?

HEEELLLLLLLLP !
 

controller

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
3,176
I would have thought that that it would be easy enough to prove by looking at the mobile phone records showing the time and duration of all outgoing and incoming calls. Silly silly boy
 

'orebel

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Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
20,538
It'll be interesting to find out.
 

Malbekh

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Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
3,032
Uh....how many times have you seen someone illegally using a mobile phone while you were driving your car? Usually in conjunction with erratic driving? Now put a cop in your place, particularly is you're the spotter in the car.

So you'll be stopped there and then.

Are you seriously going to deny it?
 

Abacus

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
763
I would have thought that that it would be easy enough to prove by looking at the mobile phone records showing the time and duration of all outgoing and incoming calls. Silly silly boy
And suppose.....just suppose now....that the MPhone belonged to someone else and / or that I had more than one MPhone ? How does he even know I have a MobPhone ? He is operating on the basis of assumptions because he did not see a MPhone with me.....so there !

Now as for assumptions....is that reliable evidence ?

I don't think I need to prove that I have or do not have a MobPhone.
But how can he prove that ?
Trawl around all the MobPhone operators ?
Repeat:...he did not see a MobPhone with me.....he saw my hand at the side of my head when standing at the opposite side of the road through a shiny windscreen and at a distance of about 20 yards......now how certain is that kind of evidence ?
 

Mister men

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Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
2,887
Serves you right tbh. Hope you get points on the licence and a fine.
 

controller

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Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
3,176
And suppose.....just suppose now....that the MPhone belonged to someone else and / or that I had more than one MPhone ? How does he even know I have a MobPhone ? He is operating on the basis of assumptions because he did not see a MPhone with me.....so there !

Now as for assumptions....is that reliable evidence ?

I don't think I need to prove that I have or do not have a MobPhone.
But how can he prove that ?
Trawl around all the MobPhone operators ?
Repeat:...he did not see a MobPhone with me.....he saw my hand at the side of my head when standing at the opposite side of the road through a shiny windscreen and at a distance of about 20 yards......now how certain is that kind of evidence ?
Who is the judge going to believe?? If you are guilty, just take your points & your fine.
 

Jaqagax

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Messages
21
I've been in that position - scratching my left ear while driving at 100kph on a national road passing a garda car parked to my left on a side road. In my view an unbelievable conclusion to draw from a fleeting glimpse. The garda even had to put on the lights to chase me down - I'd guess mostly because he was unlikely to have had enough time to read my registration.

Long story short - innocent or guilty you've little choice but to pay the fine. Only real option figure out the station the garda belonged to and try to persuade his superintendent that one of his staff isn't infallible.

Take it all the way to court and you might well win but it'll take over a year and cost you more in time off and possibly solicitor fees.

Garda is not required to have any evidence - if necessary he'll say the other garda in the car saw it, i.e two witnesses to one - are you calling a garda a liar etc. and gets unpleasant quickly. In the court situation the garda can't back down even if he's got second thoughts as the judge could blow his top.

Another problem is your phone company will not release complete details of your phone calls, i.e. won't confirm you'd no incoming calls due to data protection. You can't prove you'd no call.
 

Abacus

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
763
Think I should clarify something right here in this discussion. I'm in favour of obeying the law in all normal circumstances where there is no compelling reason to do otherwise.
I will accept all sanctions imposed on me that have been proved by credible sworn evidence in our law courts. If I know that the state have good evidence, then I will make it easy for them by making a plea at the hearing.

But I will not assist the state to make a case against me when I KNOW that the prosecutor does not have and cannot possibly have any credible evidence to show my guilt. The state is required in law to prove it's own case and there is no obligation on me to assist the prosecution against me.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Now if the state proceed against me by the false evidence of a Garda then I do not have to accept that. Why should anyone be convicted on the basis of bum evidence ?
In the higher courts where evidence is put through the reality tests, the evidence I speak of here concerning the possible sighting by a Garda of a moving car and the contents of a hand which he could not see, would not be accepted. Most probably, it would not be accepted because I would have a barrister listing the string of doubts that destroy the certainty that the Judge is looking for and must have, before proceeding to a conviction in my case.

Assumptions and beliefs make for easy bedfellows. But they make poor facts and we all know who gets the benefit of such, don't we ?

Is it wrong of me to check the Gardai for giving false evidence ?
 

rockofcashel

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
7,956
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
I've been in that position - scratching my left ear while driving at 100kph on a national road passing a garda car parked to my left on a side road. In my view an unbelievable conclusion to draw from a fleeting glimpse. The garda even had to put on the lights to chase me down - I'd guess mostly because he was unlikely to have had enough time to read my registration.

Long story short - innocent or guilty you've little choice but to pay the fine. Only real option figure out the station the garda belonged to and try to persuade his superintendent that one of his staff isn't infallible.

Take it all the way to court and you might well win but it'll take over a year and cost you more in time off and possibly solicitor fees.

Garda is not required to have any evidence - if necessary he'll say the other garda in the car saw it, i.e two witnesses to one - are you calling a garda a liar etc. and gets unpleasant quickly. In the court situation the garda can't back down even if he's got second thoughts as the judge could blow his top.

Another problem is your phone company will not release complete details of your phone calls, i.e. won't confirm you'd no incoming calls due to data protection. You can't prove you'd no call.
Yes you can, you can get your mobile phone bill and that can prove that you didn't make a call at a particular time.

Plus, the burden of evidence if you pursue a case is on the side of the Gardai to prove you committed a fine, not on you to prove you didnt commit a fine.

Look for a jury trial if necessary. Then create reasonable doubt. Send the Guard to the back of the courthouse and scratch your ear. Do this a number of times, and make him or her say whether you have a mobile in your hand at the time.

Fight it all the way.
 

controller

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
3,176
Are u guilty of the crime that you have been accused of??
 

Mister_Jinks

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Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
631
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3ATysVQouM]YouTube - Tommy Tiernan on being caught speeding[/ame]

Slightly irrelevant but funny all the same I hope!
 

Abacus

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
763
The Garda stats on this type of offence would have us believe that they prosecute thousands for this. Some of them must be P.ie viewers. Could we hear from a few especially anyone who didn't take the easy way out by rolling over but put the prosecution to proof in the case. How did it go ? Was there fairness in the process ? Did the Guard colour his/her evidence or what happened ?
 

Aindriu

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
8,702
Serves you right tbh. Hope you get points on the licence and a fine.
Totally agree. Do you have no idea how dangerous it is to use a hand held mobile while driving??? :mad:
 

Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,845
There's a few different tacks to take. First of all accept that unless you present well you're going to lose. And that losing is expensive and twice the points. From my experience though I've seen people get away with it. Forget "Whether he did it or not" as it's not really relevant to the discussion.

As mentioned obviously the best thing to do is bring the phone bill. Second thing is to examine the notebook on the event.

Third is to question pretty much everything. What sort of phone did he catch you using? What make was it? What colour was it? Did he ask to check the calls in/ calls out at the time to verify you were in fact using the phone? If not why not? How far away was the guard, how fast were you moving, in what window of time did the Garda actually have to view you on the phone while driving? 1 second? 2 seconds? etc etc etc.

It's easy to get off with in principle, but in practice it can be expensive and time consuming.

Unless the points make a material difference to your insurance situation, I'd just pay and move on.
 

darkhorse

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
18,210
What evidence do the Gardai have to have before I can be prosecuted for using a MobPhone when driving ? There don't seem to be many of these cases or am I wrong about that ?
Is it sufficient that the Garda sees my hand up to the side of my face as I drive past ?
Is that kind of suspicion compelling evidence ?

Will he be believed because he is a Garda and I as Joe Soap am unworthy of belief ?

HEEELLLLLLLLP !
In the eyes of a judge, the verbal evidence of a Garda of witnessing the offence is enough. Unless you care to accuse the Garda of lying - which I would not recommend as you might end up in jail.
On the overall principle, it doesnt make sense that you can legally use a hands free kit but not not hold the phone while driving. Most of the promoters of this nanny legislation claim that the danger lies in the lack of driver concentration and not the use of ones hand holding the phone. Drivers of automatic cars will always have a free hand, and the use of ones hand to hold something other than a phone while driving is perfectly legal.
 

Clanrickard

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Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,041
In the eyes of a judge, the verbal evidence of a Garda of witnessing the offence is enough. Unless you care to accuse the Garda of lying - which I would not recommend as you might end up in jail.
On the overall principle, it doesnt make sense that you can legally use a hands free kit but not not hold the phone while driving. Most of the promoters of this nanny legislation claim that the danger lies in the lack of driver concentration and not the use of ones hand holding the phone. Drivers of automatic cars will always have a free hand, and the use of ones hand to hold something other than a phone while driving is perfectly legal.
Ridiculous post. Talking on the phone while driving affects the quality of your driving. All phone conversations, even on hands free kits, should be banned as should smoking while driving or drinking coffee while driving or applying make up while driving. If you can't keep both hands on the wheel and concentrate on the road you shouldn't be driving. Furthermore whenever I see "nanny state" I think of cranky old who object to everything rather than cogent well argued points.
 

Clanrickard

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Apr 25, 2008
Messages
33,041

Decadance

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Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
528
My understanding is that the offence is holding the phone while driving - therefore you do not need to be making a call - typing a text, reading a text, dialing a number is sufficient. Normally it will be the word of the prosecuting Garda as evidence - up to the court to believe or not. They may produce other witnesses but not always necessary.
 

darkhorse

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Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
18,210
Ridiculous post. Talking on the phone while driving affects the quality of your driving. All phone conversations, even on hands free kits, should be banned as should smoking while driving or drinking coffee while driving or applying make up while driving. If you can't keep both hands on the wheel and concentrate on the road you shouldn't be driving. Furthermore whenever I see "nanny state" I think of cranky old who object to everything rather than cogent well argued points.
By your logic, you should also ban:
- Talking to any passengers while driving
- Listening to the radio while driving
- Looking at/checking passengers/children in the rear view mirror or front seat
- Viewing roadside advertising hoardings
- The viewing of a sat nav device
- Checking roadside landmarks when trying to find somewhere
- etc
And you call my post 'rediculous'?
 
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