Moderate pro-repealers: what's wrong with this draft legislation from Lawyers for choice? (And what's right with it?)

Congalltee

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Moderate pro-repealers: what's wrong with this draft legislation from Lawyers for choice? (And what's right with it?)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11r7ONJc5Akvxne-C9oqDeorKMYv9HpJ7DVEcrMelvHc/mobilebasic

Head 2: Abortion without restriction as to reason
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twelfth week of pregnancy without restriction as to reason if:
She expresses the view to a registered medical practitioner that she does not wish to continue with her pregnancy;
In the case of medical abortion: the medication is prescribed by a registered medical practitioner; or
In the case of surgical abortion: the abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 3: Risk to Health
A pregnant women may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if
A registered practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the continuance of the pregnancy would entail a risk to the pregnant woman’s health; and
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location; and
In forming her opinion, the registered medical practitioner has taken account of the pregnant woman’s views on the impact of the continuance of the pregnancy on her health.

Head 4: Non-Fatal Foetal Abnormality
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
A registered medical practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the unborn child has a significant abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Head 5: Pregnancy Resulting from Rape
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that the pregnancy resulted from rape;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 6: Socio-Economic Factors
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that she is of the view that she lacks the necessary socio-economic resources to support a child that would be born if the pregnancy continued to full term;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Pros: it's simple to understand and pruvudes for unrestricted choice up to 12 weeks. It cites any number of grounds on which abortions can be obtained up to 22 weeks (and beyond). If reflects the citizens Assembly.

Cons: it's written by academics. Few political parties would touch it.
 


wombat

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I believe that if such a proposal is put to the people, it will be rejected.
 

GDPR

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Simplify the question asked in the event of a referendum;

"It will be legal to kill the unborn child in the following circumstances" Yes/No.


Head 2: Abortion without restriction as to reason
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twelfth week of pregnancy without restriction as to reason if:
She expresses the view to a registered medical practitioner that she does not wish to continue with her pregnancy;
In the case of medical abortion: the medication is prescribed by a registered medical practitioner; or
In the case of surgical abortion: the abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 3: Risk to Health
A pregnant women may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if
A registered practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the continuance of the pregnancy would entail a risk to the pregnant woman’s health; and
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location; and
In forming her opinion, the registered medical practitioner has taken account of the pregnant woman’s views on the impact of the continuance of the pregnancy on her health.

Head 4: Non-Fatal Foetal Abnormality
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
A registered medical practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the unborn child has a significant abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Head 5: Pregnancy Resulting from Rape
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that the pregnancy resulted from rape;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 6: Socio-Economic Factors
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that she is of the view that she lacks the necessary socio-economic resources to support a child that would be born if the pregnancy continued to full term;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.
 

ger12

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Nothing wrong with it, it reflects what the CA voted for.
 

WTTR

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Otherwise, what these lawyers propose is legalised killing of a person!

In the absence of fundamental universal principles that have governed society since life began; lawyers operate in a free zone, where anything goes.

Look at the fiasco arising from their Section 110 initiatives that have lumbered this society with massive debt.

The above proposals on abortion if accepted, assumes that there is no relationship between intercourse, embryo/zygote/foetus/blastocyst and a baby boy or girl.

Have these same lawyers developed proposals on denying inheritance to a baby of a woman?
 
Last edited:

Jim Car

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After 19/20 weeks should it not be a termination of pregnancy rather then abortion. Meaning Doctors can deliver a viable baby and the mother no longer has to go through an abortion. I haven't seen or been able to come up with any real/effective argument against this.
 
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The PR Spin in full swing

"Pro Repealer, Pro Choice etc label"

How come the avoid the "Pro Abortion under any circumstances" label and hide behind the PR spin.
 

GDPR

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The citizens assembly? FFS
Yes and fair play to them. So much better than the abortion on demand for any or no reason at all, but step by step don't let them know what's really happening approach so favoured by most on the pro abortion side here.

Get it all out there in all its 100% self-centred ugliness and let people fully know if they vote to accept it, what it is exactly they are voting for.
 
Last edited:

Congalltee

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The citizens assembly? FFS
The Citizen's Assembly is like opinion polls - useful if interpret it correctly I context/misleading and dangerous if taken as indicative of the future.

The actual votes and recommendations are meaningless, since 42 of 88 out of 100 is about 900 people too few to be representative within 3%, 95% of the time. However, the papers they received and questions they asked and general thrust of their considered deliberations is very useful and, as one citizen said, should be mandatory viewing/reading for TDs/Senators of Oireachtas committee.

This draft bill reflect the results of the Citizen Assembly, and appear pretty silly as a result.
 

talkingshop

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/11r7ONJc5Akvxne-C9oqDeorKMYv9HpJ7DVEcrMelvHc/mobilebasic

Head 2: Abortion without restriction as to reason
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twelfth week of pregnancy without restriction as to reason if:
She expresses the view to a registered medical practitioner that she does not wish to continue with her pregnancy;
In the case of medical abortion: the medication is prescribed by a registered medical practitioner; or
In the case of surgical abortion: the abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 3: Risk to Health
A pregnant women may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if
A registered practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the continuance of the pregnancy would entail a risk to the pregnant woman’s health; and
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location; and
In forming her opinion, the registered medical practitioner has taken account of the pregnant woman’s views on the impact of the continuance of the pregnancy on her health.

Head 4: Non-Fatal Foetal Abnormality
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
A registered medical practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the unborn child has a significant abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Head 5: Pregnancy Resulting from Rape
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that the pregnancy resulted from rape;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 6: Socio-Economic Factors
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that she is of the view that she lacks the necessary socio-economic resources to support a child that would be born if the pregnancy continued to full term;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Pros: it's simple to understand and pruvudes for unrestricted choice up to 12 weeks. It cites any number of grounds on which abortions can be obtained up to 22 weeks (and beyond). If reflects the citizens Assembly.

Cons: it's written by academics. Few political parties would touch it.
In view of Heads 5 and 6, the practical effect of this is the same as if you just had Head 2 providing for abortion up to 22 weeks, and no other heads.
 

owedtojoy

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/11r7ONJc5Akvxne-C9oqDeorKMYv9HpJ7DVEcrMelvHc/mobilebasic

Head 2: Abortion without restriction as to reason
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twelfth week of pregnancy without restriction as to reason if:
She expresses the view to a registered medical practitioner that she does not wish to continue with her pregnancy;
In the case of medical abortion: the medication is prescribed by a registered medical practitioner; or
In the case of surgical abortion: the abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 3: Risk to Health
A pregnant women may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if
A registered practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the continuance of the pregnancy would entail a risk to the pregnant woman’s health; and
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location; and
In forming her opinion, the registered medical practitioner has taken account of the pregnant woman’s views on the impact of the continuance of the pregnancy on her health.

Head 4: Non-Fatal Foetal Abnormality
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
A registered medical practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the unborn child has a significant abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Head 5: Pregnancy Resulting from Rape
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that the pregnancy resulted from rape;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 6: Socio-Economic Factors
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that she is of the view that she lacks the necessary socio-economic resources to support a child that would be born if the pregnancy continued to full term;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Pros: it's simple to understand and pruvudes for unrestricted choice up to 12 weeks. It cites any number of grounds on which abortions can be obtained up to 22 weeks (and beyond). If reflects the citizens Assembly.

Cons: it's written by academics. Few political parties would touch it.
It is pretty much what I consider acceptable, and would support it.

I canvassed against putting Abortion into the Constitution, and legislation is my preferred option.

Incidentally, putting issue-specific clauses like "triple-locks" on Neutrality, or ownership of Irish Water, into the constitution to satisfy a pressure group, are bullshyte too. Abortion is in the Constitution to further a Charlie Haughey ploy to embarrass Garret Fitzgerald. Then we became stuck with it.
 

owedtojoy

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In view of Heads 5 and 6, the practical effect of this is the same as if you just had Head 2 providing for abortion up to 22 weeks, and no other heads.
Yeah, that's what they said about the 8th Amendment too, way way back.

Simple!, they said. Don't over-complicate it, they said. Will solve the problem once and for all, they said.

Just look at it now .... X Case, C Case and more than one referendum later (I have lost count).

Abortion is a complex issue, and and it will need complex legislation, not a few lines in the Constitution.
 

ger12

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Yeah, that's what they said about the 8th Amendment too, way way back.

Simple!, they said. Don't over-complicate it, they said. Will solve the problem once and for all, they said.

Just look at it now .... X Case, C Case and more than one referendum later (I have lost count).

Abortion is a complex issue, and and it will need complex legislation, not a few lines in the Constitution.
It's not complex when you have your view. It's a choice, simple and it's very hypocritical when you consider how you discriminate against disability. Not to be discriminatory would be to allow abortion up to term.
 

GDPR

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It is pretty much what I consider acceptable, and would support it.

I canvassed against putting Abortion into the Constitution, and legislation is my preferred option.

Incidentally, putting issue-specific clauses like "triple-locks" on Neutrality, or ownership of Irish Water, into the constitution to satisfy a pressure group, are bullshyte too. Abortion is in the Constitution to further a Charlie Haughey ploy to embarrass Garret Fitzgerald. Then we became stuck with it.
Abortion is in the constitution to protect the lives of unborn children, something apparently beyond the horizon of your concerns.
 

Congalltee

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Abortion is in the constitution to protect the lives of unborn children, something apparently beyond the horizon of your concerns.
Please stop the off-topic handbagging.
This thread is about specific draft legislation and asking moderate pro-repealers for feedback.
You are not pro-repeal.
Your comments, though valid in another thread, add nothing to this thread.
 

GDPR

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please stop the off-topic handbagging.
This thread is about specific draft legislation and asking moderate pro-repealers for feedback.
You are not pro-repeal.
Your comments, though valid in another thread, add nothing to this thread.
kma
 

Half Nelson

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/11r7ONJc5Akvxne-C9oqDeorKMYv9HpJ7DVEcrMelvHc/mobilebasic

Head 2: Abortion without restriction as to reason
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twelfth week of pregnancy without restriction as to reason if:
She expresses the view to a registered medical practitioner that she does not wish to continue with her pregnancy;
In the case of medical abortion: the medication is prescribed by a registered medical practitioner; or
In the case of surgical abortion: the abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 3: Risk to Health
A pregnant women may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if
A registered practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the continuance of the pregnancy would entail a risk to the pregnant woman’s health; and
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location; and
In forming her opinion, the registered medical practitioner has taken account of the pregnant woman’s views on the impact of the continuance of the pregnancy on her health.

Head 4: Non-Fatal Foetal Abnormality
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
A registered medical practitioner is of the opinion, formed in good faith, that the unborn child has a significant abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Head 5: Pregnancy Resulting from Rape
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that the pregnancy resulted from rape;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location

Head 6: Socio-Economic Factors
A pregnant woman may access an abortion until the end of the twenty-second week of pregnancy if:
She informs a medical practitioner that she is of the view that she lacks the necessary socio-economic resources to support a child that would be born if the pregnancy continued to full term;
The abortion is performed by a registered medical practitioner or other health care practitioners under their supervision at an authorised location.

Pros: it's simple to understand and pruvides for unrestricted choice up to 12 weeks. It cites any number of grounds on which abortions can be obtained up to 22 weeks (and beyond). If reflects the citizens Assembly.

Cons: it's written by academics. Few political parties would touch it.
It's worrying to think that any lawyers would come up with such a load of superficial nonsense.

Of course, by now the child has been obliterated from any considerations.
 

Half Nelson

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Yeah, that's what they said about the 8th Amendment too, way way back.

Simple!, they said. Don't over-complicate it, they said. Will solve the problem once and for all, they said.

Just look at it now .... X Case, C Case and more than one referendum later (I have lost count).

Abortion is a complex issue, and and it will need complex legislation, not a few lines in the Constitution.
The 8th has been a resounding success. It has saved thousands of Irish lives.
That's why it's a problem for pro-choice.
 


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