More Arab violence - no red (green) lines.

yanshuf

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Okay to first point out the obvious:

Rape is a disgusting crime and should be condemned.

Now that is out of the way lets discuss your portrayal of this in racial terms:

If a white man rapes a white woman in England of America his race is NEVER mentioned unless to describe him if they are still looking for him i.e. caucasion white male

In Israel if a Jewish male was to rape a Jewish woman it is treated as a crime in civil law and the race of the person is never mentioned it just says Man rapes woman. It is only when it involves a Palestinian or an ethnic minority is rape used to justify racism which is sick if i'm honest.

I'm surprised Arutz Sheva hasn't tried to portray the rape as an act of "terrorism" yet as well.

I wanted to also display how you have used this story in portraying your racism you gave us this link with the title "An Aarab from Nablus was arrested for a rape assault" - Not only did you mispell Arab but let us see what happens when we link the article directly from Haaretz source to this page without changing the descriptor text:

Suspect in Tel Aviv rape case admits only to mugging - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

I would further ask all those who look at this thread to consider these two articles:

Using rape to justify racism

Police distort crime data, inciting violence against refugees





Again look at how you represent this: "Arab gang" - racial description...

Imagine if we started saying "Jewish gang" or trying to blame or generalise about the entire Jewish people in the same way you are about Arabic people.

You also add your own spin to this suggesting this is somehow linked to the Fogel murders (If you wish to see the police report from the Fogel murders I have it and the photographs in my email inbox) which by the way were widely condemned amongst Palestinian civil society and by the PA itself.

This is also not a continuation of any kind of "pogrom" so please stop trying to turn reality completely on its head here. I again point to the fact that if this was a knife attack between Jewish Israeli's or if it was an Israeli Settler attack on Palestinians such as this here:

WATCH: Settlers shoot Palestinian in head while soldiers stand by

It is never described as a "terror attack" merely displayed rightly for the crime it is in the correct context.

Look also how you use these crimes for political gain it is very concerning that you would create a political framework for what are crimes that happen on a daily basis throughout the world - with the exception of course of planned kidnap of Israeli's which is a politically motivated concept.

These crimes are disgusting yet instead of merely condemning the crimes you concoct a framework of racial hatred, political propaganda and furthering a Pro-Israeli agenda where only one part of what you mention is actually in essence part of the framework of the Israel - Palestine conflict.

It could be argued that the Palestinian trying to knife IDF at Gush Etzion is responding to the occupation - notice that Arutz Sheva (which is the right wing settler owned news station) fails to mention that Gush Etzion (I happen to know exactly which junction he is talking about as ive stood there many times) is in the occupied palestinian territories and under military control for Palestinians and civil control for Israeli settlers (defacto Apartheid).

Also some more background - A friend of mine named Myron Joshua who lives in Gush Etzion settlement picks up Palestinians to offer them rides in his car all the time and he has not once been threatened or stabbed.

Context for you!

Context you want, context you'll get:

Aarab gang is the right word for a group of Arabs who happen to want to kidnap Jewish settlers. The context: kidnap Jews and kill them (or just slaughter them).

You also add your own spin to this suggesting this is somehow linked to the Fogel murders (If you wish to see the police report from the Fogel murders I have it and the photographs in my email inbox) which by the way were widely condemned amongst Palestinian civil society and by the PA itself
The Fogel family was slaughtered for being Jewish, and the gang attacked jews for being jews. And you can't see the connection?

by the way were widely condemned amongst Palestinian civil society and by the PA itself.
PA FM said that such a muderous act was never done by a Palestinian. (al hayat el-Jadida 13/3/2011)

The Palestinian TV said that the murder was committed on the ground of vendettas between Israeli families. (13/3/2011)

There was even a Thai worker mentioned as the murderer. (even in one of the forums here) (al-hayat el-Jadida 15/3/2011).

This is also not a continuation of any kind of "pogrom" so please stop trying to turn reality completely on its head here. I again point to the fact that if this was a knife attack between Jewish Israeli's or if it was an Israeli Settler attack on Palestinians such as this here:
Aa bunch of Arabs set a field on fire and you accuse the settlers? You do what you preach to me not to do? lol

This is also not a continuation of any kind of "pogrom"
Here you are totally mistaken - it started long ago, and it continues to this day. It is a pogrom full stop.

Look also how you use these crimes for political gain
Again, I didn't create the wheal. You in the left did.


These crimes are disgusting yet instead of merely condemning the crimes you concoct a framework of racial hatred, political propaganda and furthering a Pro-Israeli agenda where only one part of what you mention is actually in essence part of the framework of the Israel - Palestine conflict.
You should read all the threads attacking Israel. They are just what you describe.

It could be argued that the Palestinian trying to knife IDF at Gush Etzion is responding to the occupation
Gush Etsyon is not occupied, it is liberated. BTW the Arabs there would gladly skip any PA future control.

Arutz Sheva (which is the right wing settler owned news station) fails to mention that Gush Etzion (I happen to know exactly which junction he is talking about as ive stood there many times) is in the occupied palestinian territories and under military control for Palestinians and civil control for Israeli settlers (defacto Apartheid).
Gush Etsyon is not occupied, that's why Aruts Sheva failed to mention it. As for the whole use of terms, there is no occupation of territories that were part of the Jewish homeland as stated by the LoN Mandtae text.

There is the PA areas, and the areas under the full control of Israel by its military.

Now military measures are not apartheid. The use of this term is worn out thatnks to people like you.

Wwhen they stop their pogromist way, there would be no place for such measues just like it used to be in the 70-90.

Also some more background - A friend of mine named Myron Joshua who lives in Gush Etzion settlement picks up Palestinians to offer them rides in his car all the time and he has not once been threatened or stabbed.
Wow, and my Arab friends at work never stabbed me in the back too!
 


Kai123

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Nov 24, 2010
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Both sides are as bad as each-other and the more you cut closer to what both sides think they are preaching they both end up looking evil.
 

Niall996

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Gush Etzion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look pretty much occupied to me with over 70,000 illegal settlers. No wonder the Palestinian are P*ssed.
You mean here;

The core settlements of Gush Etzion before 1948 were Kfar Etzion, Massu'ot Yitzhak, Ein Tzurim and Revadim, built on tracts of land purchased from the early 1920s. [5]From November 29, 1947, Kfar Etzion was under siege and cut off from Jerusalem. On May 13, 1948, when the village surrendered, 127 Jewish inhabitants were massacred by the Arab Legion. The other villages surrendered the next day. The inhabitants were taken prisoner and the homes were plundered and burned.[6]

The establishment, defense and fall of Gush Etzion has been described as "one of the major episodes of the State of Israel-in-the-making," playing a significant role in Israeli collective memory. [7]The motivation for resettling the region is not so much ideological, political or security-related as symbolic, linked in the Israeli psyche to the massive loss of life in the Israeli War of Independence.[8]
 

yanshuf

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13,129
I'm not denying anything to anyone.
Territories like Canaan, Judea and Samaria existed. Their existence is an historical fact.

israel's existence pre-1948 is based on a story in a religious textbook. It is an article of belief rather than an historical fact.


Here:

-i was king of Israel and he oppressed Moab for many days because Kemosh was angry with his
This is taken out of the Mesha Stele, that was set up about 840 BC as a memorial of Mesha's victories over "Omri king of Israel" and his son, who had been oppressing Moab.
 

eyelight

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Sep 16, 2010
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8,199
GS:

Generalise? You are 8 years late. Since 2004, when I came here first, generalisations against Israel, the Jews and the whole conflict was already the common way in this forum.

Funny that I'm not allowed to do what all leftists here do.
Leftists?
Surely it is you who generalise.


And BTW, I didn't mispell "Aarab", when I press A it prints a double letter.
Therefore you misspelled.
 

Sisyphus

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Aug 2, 2010
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254
Yanshuf,
It is a shame that you play the race card regarding this man's alleged rape. I don't know why you felt the need to label him as an "Aarab". I read the Haaretz article which was linked, which is way more balanced than your OP which tries to make a sectarian point about this crime that simply isn't there. Assuming all the facts of the crime as reported to be true, it is a mugging followed by a rape. There is noting in it to indicate any racial motive for these crimes, and it is a million miles away from being a "pogrom". I'm not going to call you a racist, but your dislike for Palestinians must have clouded your ability to see this matter clearly. I recommend the article "Using rape to justify racism" linked by Gary Spedding post #6 above.
 

Tombo

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Aug 27, 2009
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judea existed.
judea's existence is an historical fact.

israel didn't exist.
israel's existence pre 1948 is a myth.
Given all nation states are a concoction of the late 19th century I'm not sure that factoid has much traction in any discussion.
 

yanshuf

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Joined
Aug 23, 2004
Messages
13,129
Yanshuf,
It is a shame that you play the race card regarding this man's alleged rape. I don't know why you felt the need to label him as an "Aarab". I read the Haaretz article which was linked, which is way more balanced than your OP which tries to make a sectarian point about this crime that simply isn't there. Assuming all the facts of the crime as reported to be true, it is a mugging followed by a rape. There is noting in it to indicate any racial motive for these crimes, and it is a million miles away from being a "pogrom". I'm not going to call you a racist, but your dislike for Palestinians must have clouded your ability to see this matter clearly. I recommend the article "Using rape to justify racism" linked by Gary Spedding post #6 above.
Of course you're right. Someone who enters this specific board of foreign affairs gets the impression that the only thing the Irish are interested in world affairs is Israel vs. the Arabs.

The aim of this thread is to make people see how easy it is to generalise. The idea is not mine, you've got tens on tens of threads about Israel, usually attacking it. The main tool to do so is to take an incident in the territories, something between Israeli settlers and Arabs, and generalise it as though all settlers are to blame.

The last time something like that happened was about the IDF officer. The posts read: typical IDF brutality. GENERALISATION.

Now if this is ok with posters in that thread it should work perfectly well in here.
 

L'Chaim

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May 2, 2007
Messages
18,736
Okay to first point out the obvious:

Rape is a disgusting crime and should be condemned.

Now that is out of the way lets discuss your portrayal of this in racial terms:

If a white man rapes a white woman in England of America his race is NEVER mentioned unless to describe him if they are still looking for him i.e. caucasion white male

In Israel if a Jewish male was to rape a Jewish woman it is treated as a crime in civil law and the race of the person is never mentioned it just says Man rapes woman. It is only when it involves a Palestinian or an ethnic minority is rape used to justify racism which is sick if i'm honest.

I'm surprised Arutz Sheva hasn't tried to portray the rape as an act of "terrorism" yet as well.

I wanted to also display how you have used this story in portraying your racism you gave us this link with the title "An Aarab from Nablus was arrested for a rape assault" - Not only did you mispell Arab but let us see what happens when we link the article directly from Haaretz source to this page without changing the descriptor text:

Suspect in Tel Aviv rape case admits only to mugging - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

I would further ask all those who look at this thread to consider these two articles:

Using rape to justify racism

Police distort crime data, inciting violence against refugees





Again look at how you represent this: "Arab gang" - racial description...

Imagine if we started saying "Jewish gang" or trying to blame or generalise about the entire Jewish people in the same way you are about Arabic people.

You also add your own spin to this suggesting this is somehow linked to the Fogel murders (If you wish to see the police report from the Fogel murders I have it and the photographs in my email inbox) which by the way were widely condemned amongst Palestinian civil society and by the PA itself.

This is also not a continuation of any kind of "pogrom" so please stop trying to turn reality completely on its head here. I again point to the fact that if this was a knife attack between Jewish Israeli's or if it was an Israeli Settler attack on Palestinians such as this here:

WATCH: Settlers shoot Palestinian in head while soldiers stand by

It is never described as a "terror attack" merely displayed rightly for the crime it is in the correct context.

Look also how you use these crimes for political gain it is very concerning that you would create a political framework for what are crimes that happen on a daily basis throughout the world - with the exception of course of planned kidnap of Israeli's which is a politically motivated concept.

These crimes are disgusting yet instead of merely condemning the crimes you concoct a framework of racial hatred, political propaganda and furthering a Pro-Israeli agenda where only one part of what you mention is actually in essence part of the framework of the Israel - Palestine conflict.

It could be argued that the Palestinian trying to knife IDF at Gush Etzion is responding to the occupation - notice that Arutz Sheva (which is the right wing settler owned news station) fails to mention that Gush Etzion (I happen to know exactly which junction he is talking about as ive stood there many times) is in the occupied palestinian territories and under military control for Palestinians and civil control for Israeli settlers (defacto Apartheid).

Also some more background - A friend of mine named Myron Joshua who lives in Gush Etzion settlement picks up Palestinians to offer them rides in his car all the time and he has not once been threatened or stabbed.

Context for you!
Rape, in this instance, does not have to be used to justify racism. For instance, if the girl and her boyfriend were targeted because they are Jews or Israelis then it is fair to say that "An Arab from Nablus was arrested for a rape assault". This Arab from nablus was in Israel illegally. he wasn't charged with raping a woman from nablus, where he lives or from an area under Palestinian jurisdiction. He came to Israel illegally and allegedly targeted an Israeli couple. This is not a case of, an example which you used, - an Israeli man raping an Israeli woman, where the crime is treated as a crime in civil law and the race of the person is never mentioned. This guy came into Israel illegally and allegedly raped a woman. So saying "An Arab from Nablus was arrested for a rape assault" is exactly what it is.

The Fogel murders were not widely condemned among Palestinian society and by the PA itself. The families of the killers tried to hide evidence and provide false alibis and obstructed justice. In some sections of palestinian society the killers are seen as heroes. The story put out by Palestinian groups initially was that no Palestinian would carry out such a crime (considering their track record this is hard to take) and that the killer was a foreign worker who had an issue with the Fogel family over money. Check back on the topic on here at the time and you will even see anti-Israel posters making the same claims. In Gaza Palestinians handed out sweets on the street to celebrate the murders. Initially the al-Aqsa martyr's Brigade accepted responsibility for the killings (though later this claim was retracted). So don't say the Fogel murders were widely condemned among Palestinian society and by the PA themselves, becuase that's not really the truth.
 

L'Chaim

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On topic to this post regarding the stabbing mentioned in the Arutz Sheva report:

I WILL STATE QUITE CLEARLY NOW THAT THIS IS AN UNCOMFIRMED REPORT AND I AM SIMPLY REPEATING THE INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN RELAYED TO ME A FEW MOMENTS AGO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA I HAVE NO WAY AT PRESENT TO ACERTAIN WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT THUS I AM MERELY RELAYING THIS NOT REPORTING IT AS FACT

An 18 year old Palestinian killed today by IDF settlers after reportedly attempting to stab one of them with a knife!



http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2055/54734710150886781504350.jpg

Regardless of what you think of the crime of attempted stabbing it is important to recognise that in most civilised countries they would arrest the person not murder them.

Of course i'm making this statement on the premise of the info i have recieved being true which i'm waiting to confirm.
He wasn't murdered. He was killed because he was armed and was trying to carry out the stabbing of a soldier. And most civilised countries, where officers were armed, would do the same. In the US, for instance, there is a huge chance he would be killed immediately, if a person is armed and they try to attack a member of the security forces. In the republic we have had cases where post office robbers were shot by the police and killed. In the North, during the troubles, there are more cases than we could mention of armed terrorists being killed when they tried to carry out attacks. Why do so many pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel activists have to hold Israel to a different standard to every other country? Don't you think that when you do that, people see through it, and whatever pluses your cause has are lost. When people like you try to make a case against Israel, by using a knife wielding Palestinian, who was intending to stab a soldier, then people are just going to turn away from whatever cause you support.

Don't forget that in Ireland the laws were changed and so many people supported the case of a farmer killing a traveller who he 'thought' was trying to burgle his home. So many people supported that farmer. Do you think they are suddenly going to think the opposite, where the victim was actually armed and attempted to stab somebody? Tell the truth instead of trying to 'make hay' and you might do your cause some more favours
 
Last edited:

mahrud

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A question about the Fogel murders ...

I'm just asking so no histrionics from either side please...

-Were not the Fogels illegally (according to international law ) occupying Palestinian land ?
- Were not Mr and Mrs Fogel armed and trained to use weapons -as is everyone in this and other settlements on the West Bank ?

If yes to either question then would it be correct to describe Mr and Mrs Fogel as armed illegal occupiers of Palestinain territory ?


Did not Mr Abbas immediately condemn the killings as immoral and inhuman ?

The killing of children is always vile ,whether in illegal settlements or in bombarded Gaza.
But I'm wonder whether killing an armed intruder on one's land can be so easily condemned.
 
Last edited:

L'Chaim

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A question about the Fogel murders ...

I'm just asking so no histrionics from either side please...

-Were not the Fogels illegally (according to international law ) occupying Palestinian land ?
- Were not Mr and Mrs Fogel armed and trained to use weapons -as is everyone in this and other settlements on the West Bank ?

If yes to either question then would it be correct to describe Mr and Mrs Fogel as armed illegal occupiers of Palestinain territory ?


Did not Mr Abbas immediately condemn the killings as immoral and inhuman ?

The killing of children is always vile ,whether in illegal settlements or in bombarded Gaza.
But I'm wonder whether killing an armed intruder on one's land can be so easily condemned.
Oh nice try.......as if living somewhere is justification or reason enough to be killed. but to answer your question, no the Fogels were not living on Palestinian land. The area they lived in was Jewish owned land. It certainly wasn't Palestinian land. I don't know if they were trained to use arms. Does it make a difference? I mean, look at the US and any other country that allows its citizens to 'bear arms'. Does that put them on the wrong side of the law if they legally hold firearms?
 


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