Motor Tax - is it time for a change after 9 years of using CO2 based system.

Voluntary

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The 2008 motor tax system change put a big emphasis on CO2 reduction. The unintended consequence is that Ireland has now the highest proportion of diesel cars registrations in the whole EU (~70% new cars are diesel). Diesel emits less CO2 than Petrol.

While this may be good for the climate change, it's now obvious the shift to diesel is not good for people's health as diesel emits much more of dirty and cancerogenic stuff, like particulate and nitrogen oxide.

The government seems now well aware of a need to switch the proportions of new car registrations to move closer to EU average which is somewhere around 50/50 diesel to petrol (excluding alternative source of fuel).

Electric or hydrogen vehicles are the obvious choice, but we're not there yet to have all new cars zero emission and we won't be there for a good while because of economic reasons.

In the meantime I'd like to see some emphasis put on traditional alternative fuels such as LPG and CNG which are both nearly zero emission. The main problem is the lack of infrastructure, however a good tax system could quickly change things around. Adding LPG pump to existing fuel station is not a huge investment.

14% of new cars sold in Italy run on LPG which is nearly zero emission.
6% of cars in Sweden run on LPG, 17% in Lithuania, 16% in Poland.

No new cars in Ireland are sold with LPG installations.

There's a big push these days on changing the motor tax system once again after nearly 10 years of the CO2 based one being in place. Any thoughts on what the new system may or should look like?

Prime Time Extra covered this topic few days ago:
Prime Time: Diesel Nation - Thursday 27 April 2017 - RTÉ Player
 


max99

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Paddy will be typically one of the last countries, to implement this..
 

Gin Soaked

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Road tax is a nonsense tax.

It should be baked into fuel costs. Based so as it is cost neutral at 15,000 kms in a car that gets in the mid 30's MPG.

That would satisfy culchies in modest cars and the argument can be that Dublin property tax is higher, so that offsets it.

As we know post Diselgate emissions are a nonsense as the car bypasses the clean mode when you floor it.

And, if you walk down a street with idling diesels, you get the stench of fumes. So clean my a$$.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Firstly, it would be hugely unfair to change the tax system without a huge lead-in period, or the asset values of people who reacted to current tax policy, would be seriously impacted.

Secondly, might this mean that a couple of decades from now, we might all tell Saudi Arabia to fúck off?
 

Voluntary

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Firstly, it would be hugely unfair to change the tax system without a huge lead-in period, or the asset values of people who reacted to current tax policy, would be seriously impacted.

Secondly, might this mean that a couple of decades from now, we might all tell Saudi Arabia to fúck off?
Most likely the tax change would not work retrospectively, so I guess only the new registrations would be affected. Same happened in 2008.
 

TheLoneHurler

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Scrap motor tax and replace it with road tax of €100 per vehicle and that goes to the local authority for upkeep of rural roads. The difference should then be loaded on to fuel - which would probably be around 10c per litre at most and that money should be ringfenced for the TII (formerly NRA) to look after R, N and M roads. I'd also look at abolishing all road tolls or reduce them to €1 per vehicle. Finally, the 5% motor tax that goes to water would have to be found elsewhere, perhaps loaded on to property tax. Its grossly unfair that I pay two X 5% of my cars tax to fund water for houses that have no cars.
 

'orebel

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I might be able to afford a late 08 low tax car next year ya basterds. Ffs. What's new. Those who can afford the new technology will make a huge saving annually whilst the plebs fund their driving. Again
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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I might be able to afford a late 08 low tax car next year ya basterds. Ffs. What's new. Those who can afford the new technology will make a huge saving annually whilst the plebs fund their driving. Again


Know your place.

I love sitting in my high taxed, annual nct required, modest but clean old car, while the 171 Merc with its low tax, and 2021 NCT requirement pulls up beside me.
 

Mad as Fish

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Are new diesels that much dirtier than petrol?

We need to se the figures.
 

Gin Soaked

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Firstly, it would be hugely unfair to change the tax system without a huge lead-in period, or the asset values of people who reacted to current tax policy, would be seriously impacted.

Secondly, might this mean that a couple of decades from now, we might all tell Saudi Arabia to fúck off?
Not in my plan.

Just straight abolition. Your car's residual value is a function of its fuel consumption (and inherent quality and condition. )

No one gets shafted, and good old cars would see a resurgence.
 

Gin Soaked

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Are new diesels that much dirtier than petrol?

We need to se the figures.
Use your nose.

And you can taste the pollution. Even in new supposed clean diesels.

Best bit is urban short journeys in a new diesel. Cold engine and not much better fuel economy than a petrol.

And much bigger repair bills due to high tech parts.

And running the gauntlet of provo diesel.
 

Voluntary

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So, no impact on resale values?
It may go both ways. If tax on diesel cars increases then the post 2008 reg diesels may actually increase in value as the new ones will be taxed higher.
If the tax on petrol cars decreases then this may negatively affect resale value of post 2008 petrol cars if they fit into higher tax bracket.

Taxation affects value, but this doesn't mean the wrong taxation should not be changed. Taxation has a purpose of shaping consumer behavior. Post 2008 taxation shaped this behavior big time, however the direction consumers took is far from being perfect. It's time for a change now.
 

Orbit v2

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It's amazing how people respond to financial incentives. We incentivised poisonous, smelly diesels and people responded to that, so we now have 50% smelly, poisonous diesels.

More recently, we've incentivised electric cars and charging points that are free to use and which were intended to encourage long distance journeys by electric vehicles. But, what actually happens is people like taxi drivers, hooking up to these free charging points close to home and running a business off free electricity.
 

Gin Soaked

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Know your place.

I love sitting in my high taxed, annual nct required, modest but clean old car, while the 171 Merc with its low tax, and 2021 NCT requirement pulls up beside me.
And blows cancer particulates into you when he floors it. All acceptable as the ECU can trip out of clean mode in the interests of protecting the engine in harsh acceleration. Which is pretty much all driving as the test conditions are so gentle.
 

Voluntary

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Not in my plan.

Just straight abolition. Your car's residual value is a function of its fuel consumption (and inherent quality and condition. )

No one gets shafted, and good old cars would see a resurgence.
The government is reluctant to tax diesel fuel (tax in fuel) as this would negatively affect business. Most commercial vehicles run on diesel and they are all favorably taxed vs private vehicles.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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It may go both ways. If tax on diesel cars increases then the post 2008 reg diesels may actually increase in value as the new ones will be taxed higher.
If the tax on petrol cars decreases then this may negatively affect resale value of post 2008 petrol cars if they fit into higher tax bracket.

Taxation affects value, but this doesn't mean the wrong taxation should not be changed. Taxation has a purpose of shaping consumer behavior. Post 2008 taxation shaped this behavior big time, however the direction consumers took is far from being perfect. It's time for a change now.

And the poorest consumers had to wait longest to get on the post 2008 bandwagon, and would suffer the most. Again.
 

wombat

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The reason diesel cars never became popular in the U.S. Was because they could not meet the California regulations.40 years ago NOx and sulphur were considered the main pollutants and diesels are inherently bad for NOx because of higher combustion pressure. The focus on CO2 emissions had the unintended effect of replacing petrol engines with bigger diesels. Diesels are fine on long journeys but are not suited t stop go city driving. The best policy would be to switch gradually from road to fuel tax and close the gap between diesel and petrol taxes.
 


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