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Mr Cowen haunted by his period in Finance.


He3

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Mr Cowen is haunted by his period as Minister of Finance. The future of the country was mortgaged in September 2008, by a vote taken on very little information, and NTMA's withholding money from Anglo for fear of its soundness must have been known to the Minister.

So says FF TD Sean Power on Morning Ireland. Other TDs agree with him but find it easier to stay silent he says.
 
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dresden8

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Is Lenny getting a mention?

The biggest dissembler of them all.
 

Malbekh

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I agree that Cowen is haunted by his tenure as MoF, but not so much because he was responsible for the mess we're currently in, that can be blamed fair and square on the political culture of this country and the party that represents the worst of those excesses, Fianna Fail.

No, I believe Cowen's demeanour is based on his unwillingness and inability to correct the situation while MoF. It's stupid, short-sighted laziness. You see, it's not feasible that Cowen and FF actually wanted to ruin the nation, it's purely down their ability to comprehend basic economic principles.

Still, as I've continually stated from an ABFF perspective, the best thing that could happen would be for Cowen to lead FF into the next GE. So we should call a moratorium on anti-Cowen threads and just let them hang themselves, no better man nor party....
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Mr Cowen is haunted by his period as Minister of Finance. The future of the country was mortgaged in September 2008, by a vote taken on very with little information, and NTMA's withholding money from Anglo for fear of its soundness must have been known to the Minister.

So says FF TD Sean Power on Morning Ireland. Other TDs agree with him but find it easier to stay silent he says.

These people run the country.
The key point is the "very little information" bit - FF had been in Gov for 11 years at that stage, had created the regulatory environment and had plenty of opportunity to understand the status of the banks and, in the Berts own words, had backed down when the banks told them to mind their own business. No one can fault someone for making a poor decision based on poor information, but you can fault them for being either too lazy or incompetent to gather the appropriate information in advance.

The lack of information also gives rise to the possibility that perhaps there was an ulterior motive to the decision, and that maybe with all the info in the world FF would still have backed the builders and bankers ahead of the people it is supposed to protect.
 

nonpolitic

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I see the rumblings about Cowen's leadership are starting again. Only on an individual basis still and no minister stepping into the firing line.

Is there a push on to get him to go, and install Lenny as leader, there by also getting him out of Finance in the hope of saving his reputation?
 

HarshBuzz

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Mr Cowen is haunted by his period as Minister of Finance. The future of the country was mortgaged in September 2008, by a vote taken on very with little information, and NTMA's withholding money from Anglo for fear of its soundness must have been known to the Minister.

So says FF TD Sean Power on Morning Ireland. Other TDs agree with him but find it easier to stay silent he says.
reported that Power had a right cut off Clowen at the FF parliamentary party meeting last night, telling him he doubted his suitability for the office of Taoiseach - to his face. I don't know (or care) enough about FF's internal politics to understand what Power's gripe is - presumably he's among the ranks of the shafted\overlooked?
 

slumdog1971

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reported that Power had a right cut off Clowen at the FF parliamentary party meeting last night, telling him he doubted his suitability for the office of Taoiseach - to his face. I don't know (or care) enough about FF's internal politics to understand what Power's gripe is - presumably he's among the ranks of the shafted\overlooked?
Sean Power is very close to Mary Hanafin.

Perhaps the FF machievallian knives are starting to be sharpened.

Without a shadow of doubt Cowen and Lenihan have been the most disasterous M.O.Fs ever. They both should have resigned in shame a long time ago. They are going to result in FF returning less than 40 seats in the next election and Mary Hanafin is in serious trouble.
 

Tomas Mor

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While not defending Biffo and his behaviour during his term in Finance, I dont think any of it was deliberate. Recent events in Galway and Mount Falcon would indicate that he just was not at home.
 

HarshBuzz

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They both should have resigned in shame a long time ago.
you would need to have a sense of shame for this to happen

thanks for the info on SP
 

Twin Towers

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The lack of information also gives rise to the possibility that perhaps there was an ulterior motive to the decision, and that maybe with all the info in the world FF would still have backed the builders and bankers ahead of the people it is supposed to protect.
Blackmail is a powerful ulterior motive. Did the bankers have something on them that they would sell out the country to save themselves? Night time house visits and all that.
 

ONQ

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Sean Power is very close to Mary Hanafin.

Perhaps the FF machievallian knives are starting to be sharpened.

Without a shadow of doubt Cowen and Lenihan have been the most disasterous M.O.Fs ever. They both should have resigned in shame a long time ago. They are going to result in FF returning less than 40 seats in the next election and Mary Hanafin is in serious trouble.
And you'd have who replacing Lenihan?

That mad old bat with the bird's nest on her head?

Yeah. Right.

Lenihan is dealing - poorly - with a terrible situation.

The source of the situation is threefold.

1. The continuance of tax designation long after it was needed.

This meant that developers engaged in lock-buying of apartments for letting to write off the tax. This created artificial demand for apartments, driving up the price to unheard of levels.

2. The continuance of 20% CGT when it should have been raised to 40% to help "cool" the economy.

Self-evident and mooted IIRC around 2001-2002 - correct me if I'm wrong.

3. The banks dropping almost all competent review of prudent restrictive lending practices, moving from lending to selling money and thence quickly from selling to shovelling money at people without any due diligence.

This was the killer. This supplied the fuel to the fire and I don't agree with simply denying that the Banks bear the responsibility for most of this. Regulator be damned, thsi isn't about light regulation, this is about a less than professional approach to finance by the supposed experts on a million a year and their similarly hight powered independent advisors - and against the smaller in house voices who were getting worried about where it all was going.

This was nothing more than stupid, blind greed on the part of the banks responding to people's fears that they would never own their own homes if they didn't move NOW, itself fuelled by item 1. above, the artificially high price of apartments.

The Banks lending practices massively inflated the artificially inflated property market at a time when non-one questioned people's ability to pay on a long term "bank asset" like a performing loan if they were only just covering their payments at historically low interest rates with both people earnings.

I don't believe for a minute that if the opposition parties were in power they would have done anything different. We have a lot of stupid but popular people in politics and none of them would have done any better than the current incumbents.

Nobody foresaw the extent of the disaster until it happened not even McWilliams, who then extrapolated from there and has been dooming and glooming every since.

McWilliams and his ilk, and the opposition their their ilk, STILL fail to understand thsi basic truism.

Everything is relative. Nothing has any intrinsic monetary value.

A sudden new product created here in Ireland could push Ireland's balance of payments figures through the roof, bring profitability back to our economy and make Ireland once again the destination of choice, relating value in all the NAMA-held properties.

Two chances, but that is a fact of how demand can suddenly change.

But with NAMA not paying monies due to developers, the banks not lending and government departments not spending their capital allocations this year, we are so screwed.

And you're suggesting that a party of socialists, whose raison d'etre is taxing and distribution of other people's wealth to the needy, is going to succeed in turning around Ireland Inc better than a party of entrepreneurs?

I'm sorry but I don't think that's a credible solution.

I *do* think that Fianna Fail have totally lost the run of themselves.
I don't think we have the necessary ability in any politician to sort out this mess using the instruments available.
At this point all we have is Ireland's credibility abroad, and the unwillingness of Europe to see us default on our debts.
Unless we can show that we can all pull together in this crisis, putting aside petty political differences and concentrating on our strengths Ireland will lose that credibility and founder on increasing choppy international financial seas.

I'm all for a fair taxation system, a light administration overhead, and an equitable distribution of wealth, but I believe this should come through fair remuneration channelled company structures and adequate levels of pay for all parts of a company, not just the top managements reaching astronomic and unjustifiable levels.

The current 300,000 Euro paid to top-level civil servants is a case in point.

Never mind social welfare, we need to audit what people are doing in the civil service to justify their salaries and cut their cloth according to their own measure, not in comparison to the high salaries paid to apparently untouchable criminals in the banking sector.

We need all sectors to offer value for money and while there is no absolute valuation to anything, there are relative valuations in relation to other first world countries and we need to get to that place sooner rather than later.

ONQ.
 
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hammer

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Anyone in Fianna FAIL would be better than BIFFO. Ned O` Keeffe / Timmy Dooley even :)
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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He is supposed to be a professional.

John Major was chancellor of the exchequer when the UK economy bust in 1990 - 1991. He became Prime Minister, took some responsibility, accepted his faults and turned things around, won a General Election and handed a reasonably stable economy to Tony Bliar in 1997.

He is far from perfect but at least he was compentant and professional. Maybe its because he was working class and lived in the real world for a large part of his life.
 

ONQ

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Anyone in Fianna FAIL would be better than BIFFO. Ned O` Keeffe / Timmy Dooley even :)
Biffo is a terrible communicator, Lenihan isn't much better.

This is part of the problem.

But their previous deference to the liars at the top levels the banks is the core of this.

Afraid to insist on knowing what they had to know then holding back the regulator from doing a good job by sticking to "Light touch regulation".

At a middle level, branches seldom show losses and branch managers and loan officers are competent to do what they do best - prudently led money to people and businesses.

It was the mandarins in the central offices who spend too much time at these "power" breakfasts, lunches, dinners and dinner parties that began to be legends in their own minds and believed any auld valuation put on a property by estate agents - these eejits with their million Euro a year salaries were the problem - and still are the problem.

My loan officer confirmed to me in Q2 that of 22 loan applications made in Q1 only two had been accepted by the central office.

I knew, the dogs in the street knew back then that these head office creatures were going to screw the economy into the ground by following this policy.

So it has occurred - there was no recover in Q3 and Q4 will be just the same.

Its not the government we need to change - its the top tier management in the banks, NAMA and the government departments, getting them to spend on the economy instead of zombie banks.

We need to get the existing government to put the screws on these people to lend and invest and do it yesterday, and I'm not talking about awarding contracts to multi-nationals like GAMA who don't pay their workers properly and take the money out of the economy, I'm talking about generating Irish jobs, and screw the procurement regulations.

Did you know a Spanish company is running the NCT test now?

"Its the economy stupid".

Isn't it always?

But its the IRISH economy, not the European one that we live in and we need to fix.

MEAT = Most economically advantageous tender, needs to be re-interpreted to mean Most Employed In Ireland MEII!
 
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Squire Allworthy

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The title reminds me of A Christmas Carol, Ghosts of Budgets Past, Present, and Yet to Come. Wonder how Tiny Tim will fair in this remaking?
 

Hewson

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I agree that Cowen is haunted by his tenure as MoF, but not so much because he was responsible for the mess we're currently in, that can be blamed fair and square on the political culture of this country and the party that represents the worst of those excesses, Fianna Fail.

No, I believe Cowen's demeanour is based on his unwillingness and inability to correct the situation while MoF. It's stupid, short-sighted laziness. You see, it's not feasible that Cowen and FF actually wanted to ruin the nation, it's purely down their ability to comprehend basic economic principles.

Still, as I've continually stated from an ABFF perspective, the best thing that could happen would be for Cowen to lead FF into the next GE. So we should call a moratorium on anti-Cowen threads and just let them hang themselves, no better man nor party....
Exactly. There are things rotting in so many Fianna Fail cupboards (including Bertie) that it's hard to know where to begin. They do ruthlessness like no other party operating in a supposedly civilised, democratic society.

A close relation of my wife's was appointed by the High Court to investigate the 120 Ansbacher account holders as part of the Moriarty Tribunal proceedings. The pressure that was exerted by various FF-related people on Gerard Ryan during his investigations was intense and included death threats. It didn't stop his work but it had a profound effect on him. The bill for running various tribunals of inquiry into Fianna Fail-related corruption has yet to come in and can be added to the bills we face for their incompetence.

It's beyond comprehension that there are more than a few dozen people on this island still willing to ignore the facts and vote for them.
 

anewbeginning

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Haunted me arse.

Cowen still thinks he done nothing wrong while minister for finance. EK got it spot on when he said our national downfall happened because FF scheming went exactly to plan. It was no accident we are where we are.

FF organised the biggest mass swindle of taxpayers in history anywhere. It was always going to be the case there would be a need for cutbacks to pay for it.
 
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Sync

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Mr Cowen is haunted by his period as Minister of Finance. The future of the country was mortgaged in September 2008, by a vote taken on very little information, and NTMA's withholding money from Anglo for fear of its soundness must have been known to the Minister.

So says FF TD Sean Power on Morning Ireland. Other TDs agree with him but find it easier to stay silent he says.
He's haunted the way someone hearing a slight creak on the floorboards at night is haunted. It's the rest of the country who has to live in the hotel trashed by Slimer and made worse by the Cowen-Busters.
 

HarshBuzz

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The title reminds me of A Christmas Carol, Ghosts of Budgets Past, Present, and Yet to Come. Wonder how Tiny Tim will fair in this remaking?
Unfortunately poor little Tiny Tim was a victim of timing. He was, quite simply, born at the wrong time. He was actually called TinyTadgh and was born in Dublin, in 2008, to two average income earners.

All went well for about the first few days of his life but from then on, Tiny Tadgh's circumstances entered a slow and steady decline, much like those of his parents and the country in general.

His parents suffered from reapeated tax increases, their child allowance was cut to zero and they found themselves in negative equity of 200,000 on their house bought in 2006. Daddy became a morose alcoholic and Mammy found herself hooked on valium. Services to their west Dublin locality deteriorated badly over the years and they soon found themselves living in a crime-ridden ghetto, unable to move because of the vicelike grip of their NE which became more expensive to service year after year.

Things didn't improve when Tiny Tadgh went to school either. He was in a class of 60 and his autism wasn't diagnosed, and even if it had been, there was no money available to treat it as all the country's finances were utilised to repay the interest on the gargantuan national Debt of over 200bn. Any talented people quickly left this benighted isle and Ireland was left with only an underclass of dimwitted, indebted fools who were easily ruled by the prevailing class of Gombeen FFers. Tiny Tadgh grew up full of inarticulate rage.

And so forth. Bleak enough?
 

hammer

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Bleak but incompetent Fianna FAIL that walked us into this disaster will definitely get us out of this depression :)

Cowen is the greatest Fianna FAIL leader ever. Only one back bencher stood up and was counted last night. The rest are lambs :)
 
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