Mueller's Investigation of Trump on the ropes.Chart the unravelling here (Second Thread)


owedtojoy

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The Navy fighter pilot judge who shot down Mueller
Proper hero that judge! Exposed Mueller's deceit. Wanted to know why Manafort was being prosecuted for stuff that had nothing to do with Russian collusion. Says it all. Investigation unravelled? More than half way there I'd say.
Manafort is up for sentencing before Amy Berman Johnson next week, for violating his plea deal and lying.

Your problem with him is obviously that he did not lie enough.
 

Wagmore

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Why shouldn't he be prosecuted for crimes that he committed?
No issue with that though Mueller was primarily supposed to be about investigating Russian collusion. As is clear from what judge says, Mullet embarked on a desperate mud slinging exercise when he didn't find any
 

owedtojoy

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No issue with that though Mueller was primarily supposed to be about investigating Russian collusion. As is clear from what judge says, Mullet embarked on a desperate mud slinging exercise when he didn't find any
I thought it was a "witch hunt"?

Some "witch hunt". No stake burning for Manafort, then. He had a luck to get a soft judge, or as some put it maybe more accurately, "a crank", or a bigot.

Bad day for American justice.


[B][QUOTE]Rebecca J. Kavanagh‏ @DrRJKavanagh[/B]
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While Paul Manafort just received a less than 4 year prison sentence for massive financial fraud, I have a client serving 3 and a half to 7 years in prison for stealing laundry detergent from a drug store.[
/QUOTE]


[B][QUOTE]Ashton Pittman‏ @ashtonpittman[/B]
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In 2009, Judge Ellis sentenced Rep. Bill Jefferson (D-La.) to 13 yrs on corruption charges. It was the longest sentence EVER for a member of Congress. Today, on far more serious charges, Ellis gave Paul Manafort 47 months instead of the recommended 19-24 yrs. (h/t @LamarWhiteJr)
eader Adrift‏ @ReaderAdrift


Reader Adrift Retweeted Ashton Pittman

Judge Ellis is white. Manafort is white. Bill Jefferson is black.[/QUOTE]
 
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owedtojoy

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O'Sullivan Bere

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No issue with that though Mueller was primarily supposed to be about investigating Russian collusion. As is clear from what judge says, Mullet embarked on a desperate mud slinging exercise when he didn't find any
The judge never said that Mueller didn't find any Russian collusion, though. What Mueller might or might not know about that remains unknown and/or within a stack of still sealed indictments known to exist. The judge remarked that the charges for which Manafort was being sentenced did not involve it, a distinguishable difference.

It's also not mudslinging that he prosecuted Manafort for these crimes. They were within the scope of his instructions to do so. Further, it's common practice for prosecutors to charge offenders with crimes they've actually committed and attempt to flip them for catching bigger fish when addressing topics like corruption, drug dealing, etc. Lastly, Manafort was indeed found guilty of these serious felonies, so it's not an act of mudslinging to hold a known serious criminal to legal accountability.
 
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Wagmore

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The judge never said that Mueller didn't find any Russian collusion, though. What Mueller might or might not know about that remains unknown and/or within a stack of still sealed indictments known to exist. The judge remarked that the charges for which Manafort was being sentenced did not involve it, a distinguishable difference.

It's also not mudslinging that he prosecuted Manafort for these crimes. They were within the scope of his instructions to do so. Further, it's common practice for prosecutors to charge offenders with crimes they've actually committed and attempt to flip them for catching bigger fish when addressing topics like corruption, drug dealing, etc. Lastly, Manafort was indeed found guilty of these serious felonies, so it's not an act of mudslinging to hold a known serious criminal to legal accountability.
Fair enough but the media narrative is all about indictments connected with Russian collusion. Surprised Mueller's team wouldn't have tried to do Manafort on Russian collusion in 2016 election if they had evidence. Trying to flip him for catching bigger fish sounds deeply immoral. Especially when there's a sense now that there was no Russian collusion. In many cases it will can lead to Michael Cohen syndrome where an individual turns overnight from praising Trump as a visionary to dissing him as a fake. Don't buy your "lastly." Manafort wouldn't have been done for anything if he hadn't associated himself with Donald Trump during an election. The implications of that last sentence are not good for American jurisprudence and will put most sane people on corrupt witch-hunt alert.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Fair enough but the media narrative is all about indictments connected with Russian collusion. Surprised Mueller's team wouldn't have tried to do Manafort on Russian collusion in 2016 election if they had evidence. Trying to flip him for catching bigger fish sounds deeply immoral. Especially when there's a sense now that there was no Russian collusion. In many cases it will can lead to Michael Cohen syndrome where an individual turns overnight from praising Trump as a visionary to dissing him as a fake. Don't buy your "lastly." Manafort wouldn't have been done for anything if he hadn't associated himself with Donald Trump during an election. The implications of that last sentence are not good for American jurisprudence and will put most sane people on corrupt witch-hunt alert.
If I were Mueller, I'd have done the same thing insofar as the scope of his mandate. Wouldn't you in fairness if that was your assigned job as a prosecutor? Here's his assigned mandate from the Justice Dept.:

(i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

Mueller discovered these crimes whilst doing his assignment and he's directed to prosecute them. He's referred evidence and cases to others that he's unearthed during his investigation that don't seem reasonably linked to investigating the Russia aspect but Manafort clearly fits within that ambit, and it seems Giuliani even knows so.
Rudy Giuliani: 'I never said there was no collusion' by Trump campaign
Having discovered Manafort's crimes during the course of his investigation, trying in turn to flip Manafort to discover truthful information about whether or not Trump and/or others were/are involved with the Russia inquiry is precisely what he's tasked with doing.

As for the 'lastly' part I raised, you don't seem the type to think it's okay to be engaged in serious felonies and be entitled to a free pass. I agree that it's likely that Manafort probably would never have been held to account for these crimes had he not involved himself with Trump's election where both their behaviours collectively and independently facially suspect regarding Russia, but IMO that's far more a social, political and judicial injustice, which is part of the complaining about how the sentencing judge is lenient on white collar crimes involving the rich, white and connected. Such types usually get away with all sorts of serious misconduct unless they expose themselves so recklessly that they can't be ignored, and even when finally prosecuted, given slack in sentencing and deals.
 
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NYCKY

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I thought it was a "witch hunt"?

Some "witch hunt". No stake burning for Manafort, then. He had a luck to get a soft judge, or as some put it maybe more accurately, "a crank", or a bigot.

Bad day for American justice.


[B][QUOTE]Rebecca J. Kavanagh‏ @DrRJKavanagh[/B]
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While Paul Manafort just received a less than 4 year prison sentence for massive financial fraud, I have a client serving 3 and a half to 7 years in prison for stealing laundry detergent from a drug store.[
/QUOTE]


[B][QUOTE]Ashton Pittman‏ @ashtonpittman[/B]
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In 2009, Judge Ellis sentenced Rep. Bill Jefferson (D-La.) to 13 yrs on corruption charges. It was the longest sentence EVER for a member of Congress. Today, on far more serious charges, Ellis gave Paul Manafort 47 months instead of the recommended 19-24 yrs. (h/t @LamarWhiteJr)
eader Adrift‏ @ReaderAdrift


Reader Adrift Retweeted Ashton Pittman

Judge Ellis is white. Manafort is white. Bill Jefferson is black.
[/QUOTE]

If you do a bit more research into it you will find that it's a bit more than black and white if you excuse the pun. Let's not oversimplify what happened here.

Jefferson might have gotten 13 years but he has been out of prison since 2017, having gone in in in 2012, thanks to appeals processes. Although Jefferson was convicted on 11 of 16 charages, he didn't serve anything close to 13 years. After appeals and plea deals he was sentenced to time served, about four and a half years. The cases aren't remotely comparable. Jefferson was a multi term Congressman that was caught with a freezer full of cash from bribes and the the 13 years he got was a lot less than the 30 years that prosecutors had sought.

Not defending Manafort but these crimes he was convicted of were before his time in the Trump campaign. Manafort has served nine months in solitary confinement for his crimes which he admitted to and is getting credit for this time.

The same Judge Ellis, was involved in the John Walker Lindh case, the white American that was radicalized by Al Qaeda. Lindh got 20 years in prison without the possibility of parole. Lindh is white but got no special racial preference there either.

Apples and Oranges spring to mind.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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If you do a bit more research into it you will find that it's a bit more than black and white if you excuse the pun. Let's not oversimplify what happened here.

Jefferson might have gotten 13 years but he has been out of prison since 2017, having gone in in in 2012, thanks to appeals processes. Although Jefferson was convicted on 11 of 16 charages, he didn't serve anything close to 13 years. After appeals and plea deals he was sentenced to time served, about four and a half years. The cases aren't remotely comparable. Jefferson was a multi term Congressman that was caught with a freezer full of cash from bribes and the the 13 years he got was a lot less than the 30 years that prosecutors had sought.

Not defending Manafort but these crimes he was convicted of were before his time in the Trump campaign. Manafort has served nine months in solitary confinement for his crimes which he admitted to and is getting credit for this time.

The same Judge Ellis, was involved in the John Walker Lindh case, the white American that was radicalized by Al Qaeda. Lindh got 20 years in prison without the possibility of parole. Lindh is white but got no special racial preference there either.

Apples and Oranges spring to mind.
Jefferson got lucky with an appellate reversal based on defective jury instructions stemming from the subsequent SCOTUS decision regarding bribery in the Governor McDonnell case. Jefferson's case was then 'settled' in lieu of further trials and proceedings by the agreed final dispositions. If Ellis has had his way, Jefferson would have received what he sentenced originally. Manafort effectively stole around $25 million through his crimes--an extensively larger sum than the bribery amounts Jefferson received.
Manafort must pay millions in restitution
Both Jefferson and Manafort trigger(ed) national security concerns given their crimes involved foreign interests and influences.

Lindh is white and he obviously triggered national security concerns given what he did, but he wasn't rich, well connected and involved in white collar crime.
 

NYCKY

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Jefferson got lucky with an appellate reversal based on defective jury instructions stemming from the subsequent SCOTUS decision regarding bribery in the Governor McDonnell case. Jefferson's case was then 'settled' in lieu of further trials and proceedings by the agreed final dispositions. If Ellis has had his way, Jefferson would have received what he sentenced originally. Manafort effectively stole around $25 million through his crimes--an extensively larger sum than the bribery amounts Jefferson received.
Manafort must pay millions in restitution
Both Jefferson and Manafort trigger(ed) national security concerns given their crimes involved foreign interests and influences.

Lindh is white and he obviously triggered national security concerns given what he did, but he wasn't rich, well connected and involved in white collar crime.

Ok so was there some racial element from the judge here?
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Ok so was there some racial element from the judge here?
It's reasonably suspected IMO given his track record of being soft on white collar crime for the rich, white and connected.

As you're surely aware, you don't have to wrap yourself In Klan or Nazi regalia or shave your head to have white privilege/supremacist views or look upon all whites equally or at least better than minorities.

Even in the novel and film Gone with the Wind that romanticised the Plantation class of the antebellum South, "poor white trash" were looked upon as scum by the Plantation class and their favoured house slaves. Irish diaspora in the US that became wealthy, connected or otherwise 'respectable' were known as 'lace curtain' and often looked down upon poor Irish as 'shanty Irish', etc.

It didn't mean blacks were accepted equally in turn if they had something going for them. Quite the opposite was usually the case and most were kept from becoming successful by social and legal discrimination .
 
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owedtojoy

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If you do a bit more research into it you will find that it's a bit more than black and white if you excuse the pun. Let's not oversimplify what happened here.

Jefferson might have gotten 13 years but he has been out of prison since 2017, having gone in in in 2012, thanks to appeals processes. Although Jefferson was convicted on 11 of 16 charages, he didn't serve anything close to 13 years. After appeals and plea deals he was sentenced to time served, about four and a half years. The cases aren't remotely comparable. Jefferson was a multi term Congressman that was caught with a freezer full of cash from bribes and the the 13 years he got was a lot less than the 30 years that prosecutors had sought.

Not defending Manafort but these crimes he was convicted of were before his time in the Trump campaign. Manafort has served nine months in solitary confinement for his crimes which he admitted to and is getting credit for this time.

The same Judge Ellis, was involved in the John Walker Lindh case, the white American that was radicalized by Al Qaeda. Lindh got 20 years in prison without the possibility of parole. Lindh is white but got no special racial preference there either.

Apples and Oranges spring to mind.
I am less than impressed with this argument.

If things stood as they are, do you really think Manafort will serve 47 months? If Trump does not pardon him outright, he will hardly serve 12. Or he might have his sentence commuted like Bush did Scooter Libby's. The recommended sentence for his crimes was well over fifteen times that.

I am sure ex-Congressman Jefferson was also able to afford a good lawyer - woe betide the poor man in the system. Longer sentences than Manafort's have been given for shop-lifting.

Different justice for apples and oranges, indeed.
 

owedtojoy

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I am less than impressed with this argument.

If things stood as they are, do you really think Manafort will serve 47 months? If Trump does not pardon him outright, he will hardly serve 12. Or he might have his sentence commuted like Bush did Scooter Libby's. The recommended sentence for his crimes was well over fifteen times that.

I am sure ex-Congressman Jefferson was also able to afford a good lawyer - woe betide the poor man in the system. Longer sentences than Manafort's have been given for shop-lifting.

Different justice for apples and oranges, indeed.
A bad day for Manafort.

Paul Manafort Sentenced to 90 Months in Federal Prison, Immediately Indicted on 16 More Counts in New York

With concurrent sentences, Manafort should serve about 7 years. At least - we will see what New York do with him, and his "otherwise blameless life".

It is no harm to recall some of that "blameless life" ... Manafort was the Washington "go to guy" for any torture-loving Dictator or Tyrant who needed a lobbyist in the US ...

In an otherwise blameless life, he worked to keep arms flowing to the Angolan generalissimo Jonas Savimbi, a monstrous leader bankrolled by the apartheid government in South Africa. While Manafort helped portray his client as an anti-communist “freedom fighter,” Savimbi’s army planted millions of land mines in peasant fields, resulting in 15,000 amputees. ....

In an otherwise blameless life, he spent a decade as the chief political adviser to a clique of former gangsters in Ukraine. ....
Paul Manafort's 'Otherwise Blamess Life' of Crime - The Atlantic

And what does this say about Trump's America, even aside from the fact that Trump could pick a lowlife crook like Manafort as his Campaign Manager?
... having knowingly voted to elect a president who is a serial shorter of his own contractors, launderer of dirty money, and unabashed tax cheat—under the theory that this is what great businessmen do—Americans should hardly be surprised. This is what success, power, and ambition look like in 2019.
Manafort’s Brief Prison Sentence Is Appalling but Not Shocking
 
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