My Great Grand Uncle who was in the RIC was shot dead by the IRA in 1921. Did he deserve it?

TruthInTheNews

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I recently discovered, while researching the family tree, that my Great Grand Uncle who was in the RIC was shot dead by the IRA in 1921. This lead to some very interesting discussions at family gatherings over the Christmas holidays between those who felt that he deserved it for aiding and abetting the enemy and those who felt that the IRA actions were tantamount to murder.


The argument in favour of shooting RIC men who were actively engaged in suppressing the IRA along with the Auxiliaries, Tans and British Army is that the 1918 election was a referendum on independence and since the majority voted in favour of independence the RIC lost their legitimacy.


The argument against is that the IRA did not have the support of the majority of Nationalists and that the War of Independence was not a just war.


My own view is that the majority of Nationalists did support the War of Independence and those Nationalist RIC men who assisted the British Government in suppressing the IRA did not have a mandate from their own people. The Great Grand Uncle should have resigned or spied for the IRA as many RIC men did.


Did my Great Grand Uncle deserve to be shot? What do you think?
 


Therightroad

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Anyone serving for an occupying force is bound to be a target for the locals??...administering British rule on his own people??...
 

Fullforward

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I recently discovered, while researching the family tree, that my Great Grand Uncle who was in the RIC was shot dead by the IRA in 1921. This lead to some very interesting discussions at family gatherings over the Christmas holidays between those who felt that he deserved it for aiding and abetting the enemy and those who felt that the IRA actions were tantamount to murder.


The argument in favour of shooting RIC men who were actively engaged in suppressing the IRA along with the Auxiliaries, Tans and British Army is that the 1918 election was a referendum on independence and since the majority voted in favour of independence the RIC lost their legitimacy.


The argument against is that the IRA did not have the support of the majority of Nationalists and that the War of Independence was not a just war.


My own view is that the majority of Nationalists did support the War of Independence and those Nationalist RIC men who assisted the British Government in suppressing the IRA did not have a mandate from their own people. The Great Grand Uncle should have resigned or spied for the IRA as many RIC men did.


Did my Great Grand Uncle deserve to be shot? What do you think?
He joined a foreign invading military organisation (Most likely paid for his work too ) and there is a price to be paid for that. When there is a military conflict and you wear the uniform of and are in the pay of one side you should not be surprised if the enemy attack you. So, YES...he deserved to be shot.
 

Truth.ie

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He joined a foreign invading military organisation (Most likely paid for his work too ) and there is a price to be paid for that. When there is a military conflict and you wear the uniform of and are in the pay of one side you should not be surprised if the enemy attack you. So, YES...he deserved to be shot.
And today????
 

ruserious

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If it's wrong today then it was wrong then.
That doesn't follow. Today, we are a sovereign State. We can't prescribe today's morals on yesterday's people who did not enjoy national freedom.
 

Therightroad

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Bottom line Fine Gael people will say it was wrong and quietly would prefer to be under British rule....All others including Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein obviously think it was right to shoot Collaborators of the british.
This type of conversation will me more commonplace when the 100th year of the civil war comes up showing it was the descendants of Fine Gael that agreed to divide this country.
 

Therightroad

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That doesn't follow. Today, we are a sovereign State. We can't prescribe today's morals on yesterday's people who did not enjoy national freedom.
By the Same token the people of Armagh , Tyrone etc dont enjoy national freedom so whats wrong with they topping a RUC man??
 

corporal punishment

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Shunned maybe but not shot. Differant times I know but still. My own grandfather was in a flying column and if family lore is to be believed, had a few kills to his name.
 

ruserious

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By the Same token the people of Armagh , Tyrone etc dont enjoy national freedom so whats wrong with they topping a RUC man??
There is a legitimate means of achieving their aspirations electorally. They are allowed to play GAA, practice their Religion and gather in groups and societies. This wasn't true for Irish people in the 20's and actually, in the North until the latter stages of the troubles too. You can't just go around killing people if you don't get what you want.
 

Truth.ie

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There is a legitimate means of achieving their aspirations electorally. They are allowed to play GAA, practice their Religion and gather in groups and societies. This wasn't true for Irish people in the 20's and actually, in the North until the latter stages of the troubles too. You can't just go around killing people if you don't get what you want.
They had elections, the GAA, religious freedom and gatherings in the 20's too.
The IRA in every generation was a Nationalist movement. Not once did they ever mention that they were fighting for "civil rights" within the Union.
 

talkingshop

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And today????
Today they have no mandate. They never had a mandate from the time the Irish state was set up. If you are going to carry out a "war" you must have the support of the people you are carrying out this "war" on behalf of.
 

Truth.ie

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Today they have no mandate. They never had a mandate from the time the Irish state was set up. If you are going to carry out a "war" you must have the support of the people you are carrying out this "war" on behalf of.
Did they have a mandate when Dan Breen killed those 2 Catholic policemen in Soloheadbeg?
Nope.
 

JimmyFoley

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I recently discovered, while researching the family tree, that my Great Grand Uncle who was in the RIC was shot dead by the IRA in 1921. This lead to some very interesting discussions at family gatherings over the Christmas holidays between those who felt that he deserved it for aiding and abetting the enemy and those who felt that the IRA actions were tantamount to murder.


The argument in favour of shooting RIC men who were actively engaged in suppressing the IRA along with the Auxiliaries, Tans and British Army is that the 1918 election was a referendum on independence and since the majority voted in favour of independence the RIC lost their legitimacy.


The argument against is that the IRA did not have the support of the majority of Nationalists and that the War of Independence was not a just war.


My own view is that the majority of Nationalists did support the War of Independence and those Nationalist RIC men who assisted the British Government in suppressing the IRA did not have a mandate from their own people. The Great Grand Uncle should have resigned or spied for the IRA as many RIC men did.


Did my Great Grand Uncle deserve to be shot? What do you think?
In the immortal words of Rev. Lovejoy:

'Short answer: “Yes” with an “If,”; long answer: “No” — with a “But".'
 

ScoobyDoo

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I recently discovered, while researching the family tree, that my Great Grand Uncle who was in the RIC was shot dead by the IRA in 1921. This lead to some very interesting discussions at family gatherings over the Christmas holidays between those who felt that he deserved it for aiding and abetting the enemy and those who felt that the IRA actions were tantamount to murder.


The argument in favour of shooting RIC men who were actively engaged in suppressing the IRA along with the Auxiliaries, Tans and British Army is that the 1918 election was a referendum on independence and since the majority voted in favour of independence the RIC lost their legitimacy.


The argument against is that the IRA did not have the support of the majority of Nationalists and that the War of Independence was not a just war.


My own view is that the majority of Nationalists did support the War of Independence and those Nationalist RIC men who assisted the British Government in suppressing the IRA did not have a mandate from their own people. The Great Grand Uncle should have resigned or spied for the IRA as many RIC men did.


Did my Great Grand Uncle deserve to be shot? What do you think?

There was no majority in the 1918 election voting for independence. There was a slight majority in favour of pro Union parties.

These days when there is a slight majority in favour of voting to stay in a Union, SF strongly argues the will of the people should be recognised and they are allowed to stay in the Union.
 

talkingshop

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Did they have a mandate when Dan Breen killed those 2 Catholic policemen in Soloheadbeg?
Nope.
As the OP says it's at least arguable they had a mandate for the War of Independence. However it's clear to me anyway that the (vast?) majority of Irish people did not wish to continue the war against the British after 1922, and reluctantly accepted that accepting partition was was the best deal we could get and the preferred option to continuing the War. Ergo the IRA had no mandate to continue the war.
 

TruthInTheNews

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Shunned maybe but not shot. Differant times I know but still. My own grandfather was in a flying column and if family lore is to be believed, had a few kills to his name.
They were interesting times. I have been reading some of the original historical sources from the period and it seems that the IRA had a "non agression pact" with the DMP (Dublin Metropolitan Police) and as a result the DMP suffered very few casualties during the WoI. On the other hand most of the top brass in the RIC were Orange Men or Brits which probably explains why the RIC pursued the IRA so aggressively. The RIC might have opted out of the WoI if the leadership had been Nationalist rather than Unionist.
 

Henry94.

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There was no majority in the 1918 election voting for independence. There was a slight majority in favour of pro Union parties.

These days when there is a slight majority in favour of voting to stay in a Union, SF strongly argues the will of the people should be recognised and they are allowed to stay in the Union.

That's utterly misleading. Sinn Fein won 46.9% of the vote but that does not include the 25 seats where they were unopposed. The mandate for independence was overwhelming and cast iron. It is nonsense to argue otherwise.
 


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