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My Green Paper for a United Ireland


DeGaulle 2.0

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Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
2,001
Website
ga.wikipedia.org
Lots of posters seem to want a Green Paper for a United Ireland - so here's mine:

My Green Paper for a United Ireland

1. A united Ireland will happen by the 6 counties being incorporated into the Republic, similar to the way East Germany was incorporated into the existing West Germany.
[There will be no grandiose new Republic declared - simply a continuation of the existing state]

2. The Dáil will be increased in size proportionally to allow for the increase in population of the state.
[ Based on an existing Dáíl of 158 seats this would result in a new Dáil of approx 221 seats.]

3. The Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont will be abolished.
[ There are a couple of reasons for this:

a) the population of the 6 counties is too large relative to that of the country as a whole for it to be administered separately. A system where 6-county TDs are voting on issues affecting Munster, Leinster and Connacht but where Munster, Leinster and Connacht TDs cannot vote on issues affecting the 6 counties is simply undemocratic. This problem ("the West Lothian problem" as it is known in the UK) does not arise at present because NI is just 3% of the UK population.

b) in theory, you could have a federal system of government in Ireland, with provincial assemblies for Leinster, Munster and Connacht having the same powers as the Stormont Assembly currently has. In practice, there is no demand for provincial or regional assemblies in Ireland (similar to the situation in England). There is no point in creating unwanted regional assemblies in Dublin, Cork and Galway - it would be another unwanted layer of bureaucracy]


4. A committee of all TDs elected in the 6 counties will be formed to consider any issues of equality, etc. that might previously have been dealt with by the Assembly
[ I am not sure what powers this committee should actually have - possibly a majority of either unionists or nationalists to have the power to force the Dáíl to reconsider legislation/decisions that affect inter-community relations in the North.

Another consequence of this is that Dáil constituency boundaries will not cross the 6-county border ]


5. The PSNI will continue as a separate police force responsible to the government in the same way as the Garda Siochána.
[ This is probably necessary until the legal systems are synchronized ]

6. Legal - the legal system North and South will gradually be brought into line.
[ This will not be an overnight process - it might take many years ]

7. Education - the 6 county education system will continue unchanged. Irish will not be compulsory in the 6 counties.
[ Over time, a new national curriculum will be developed for North and South - this will be a long-term project ]

8. Health - the health system will be merged as quickly as possible, starting immediately.
[ There is no reason for there to be 2 separate administrations ]

9. Social Welfare - the Northern Social Welfare system will be gradually transformed into the Southern one.
[ There will be a transition period to ensure that there are no shocks for those involved ]

10. Military - the Irish Army will take over British Army bases in the North.

11. Flags/Anthems. The Tricolour to continue as the national flag. A new national anthem to be chosen. The Irish language version to be used at state events in the 26 counties and the English language version to be used at state events in the 6 counties.
[ To be honest I am not sure about this point ]


To be honest, I do not expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime. Just looking at it from a regional perspective, a united Ireland means a huge diminution in the status of Belfast which would lose its "capital" status and be a city just like Cork. Perhaps having the Dáil sit in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast could be looked at. The economics of a United Ireland will be a huge issue - but it is so far away that it isn't really possible to consider this today.
 

SgtBilko

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
7,394
Lots of posters seem to want a Green Paper for a United Ireland - so here's mine:

My Green Paper for a United Ireland

1. A united Ireland will happen by the 6 counties being incorporated into the Republic, similar to the way East Germany was incorporated into the existing West Germany.
[There will be no grandiose new Republic declared - simply a continuation of the existing state]

2. The Dáil will be increased in size proportionally to allow for the increase in population of the state.
[ Based on an existing Dáíl of 158 seats this would result in a new Dáil of approx 221 seats.]

3. The Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont will be abolished.
[ There are a couple of reasons for this:

a) the population of the 6 counties is too large relative to that of the country as a whole for it to be administered separately. A system where 6-county TDs are voting on issues affecting Munster, Leinster and Connacht but where Munster, Leinster and Connacht TDs cannot vote on issues affecting the 6 counties is simply undemocratic. This problem ("the West Lothian problem" as it is known in the UK) does not arise at present because NI is just 3% of the UK population.

b) in theory, you could have a federal system of government in Ireland, with provincial assemblies for Leinster, Munster and Connacht having the same powers as the Stormont Assembly currently has. In practice, there is no demand for provincial or regional assemblies in Ireland (similar to the situation in England). There is no point in creating unwanted regional assemblies in Dublin, Cork and Galway - it would be another unwanted layer of bureaucracy]


4. A committee of all TDs elected in the 6 counties will be formed to consider any issues of equality, etc. that might previously have been dealt with by the Assembly
[ I am not sure what powers this committee should actually have - possibly a majority of either unionists or nationalists to have the power to force the Dáíl to reconsider legislation/decisions that affect inter-community relations in the North.

Another consequence of this is that Dáil constituency boundaries will not cross the 6-county border ]


5. The PSNI will continue as a separate police force responsible to the government in the same way as the Garda Siochána.
[ This is probably necessary until the legal systems are synchronized ]

6. Legal - the legal system North and South will gradually be brought into line.
[ This will not be an overnight process - it might take many years ]

7. Education - the 6 county education system will continue unchanged. Irish will not be compulsory in the 6 counties.
[ Over time, a new national curriculum will be developed for North and South - this will be a long-term project ]

8. Health - the health system will be merged as quickly as possible, starting immediately.
[ There is no reason for there to be 2 separate administrations ]

9. Social Welfare - the Northern Social Welfare system will be gradually transformed into the Southern one.
[ There will be a transition period to ensure that there are no shocks for those involved ]

10. Military - the Irish Army will take over British Army bases in the North.

11. Flags/Anthems. The Tricolour to continue as the national flag. A new national anthem to be chosen. The Irish language version to be used at state events in the 26 counties and the English language version to be used at state events in the 6 counties.
[ To be honest I am not sure about this point ]


To be honest, I do not expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime. Just looking at it from a regional perspective, a united Ireland means a huge diminution in the status of Belfast which would lose its "capital" status and be a city just like Cork. Perhaps having the Dáil sit in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast could be looked at. The economics of a United Ireland will be a huge issue - but it is so far away that it isn't really possible to consider this today.
I stopped reading after you're first 14 words of point number 1.

To have ANY chance of convincing any sceptic on the merits of a "United Ireland", you'll have to come up with something new...something better....and something attractive.

Simply absorbing Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland is a bigger turn off than the thought of Barbara De Brun pole dancing.
 

RahenyFG

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
9,206
Lots of posters seem to want a Green Paper for a United Ireland - so here's mine:

My Green Paper for a United Ireland

1. A united Ireland will happen by the 6 counties being incorporated into the Republic, similar to the way East Germany was incorporated into the existing West Germany.
[There will be no grandiose new Republic declared - simply a continuation of the existing state]

2. The Dáil will be increased in size proportionally to allow for the increase in population of the state.
[ Based on an existing Dáíl of 158 seats this would result in a new Dáil of approx 221 seats.]

3. The Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont will be abolished.
[ There are a couple of reasons for this:

a) the population of the 6 counties is too large relative to that of the country as a whole for it to be administered separately. A system where 6-county TDs are voting on issues affecting Munster, Leinster and Connacht but where Munster, Leinster and Connacht TDs cannot vote on issues affecting the 6 counties is simply undemocratic. This problem ("the West Lothian problem" as it is known in the UK) does not arise at present because NI is just 3% of the UK population.

b) in theory, you could have a federal system of government in Ireland, with provincial assemblies for Leinster, Munster and Connacht having the same powers as the Stormont Assembly currently has. In practice, there is no demand for provincial or regional assemblies in Ireland (similar to the situation in England). There is no point in creating unwanted regional assemblies in Dublin, Cork and Galway - it would be another unwanted layer of bureaucracy]


4. A committee of all TDs elected in the 6 counties will be formed to consider any issues of equality, etc. that might previously have been dealt with by the Assembly
[ I am not sure what powers this committee should actually have - possibly a majority of either unionists or nationalists to have the power to force the Dáíl to reconsider legislation/decisions that affect inter-community relations in the North.

Another consequence of this is that Dáil constituency boundaries will not cross the 6-county border ]


5. The PSNI will continue as a separate police force responsible to the government in the same way as the Garda Siochána.
[ This is probably necessary until the legal systems are synchronized ]

6. Legal - the legal system North and South will gradually be brought into line.
[ This will not be an overnight process - it might take many years ]

7. Education - the 6 county education system will continue unchanged. Irish will not be compulsory in the 6 counties.
[ Over time, a new national curriculum will be developed for North and South - this will be a long-term project ]

8. Health - the health system will be merged as quickly as possible, starting immediately.
[ There is no reason for there to be 2 separate administrations ]

9. Social Welfare - the Northern Social Welfare system will be gradually transformed into the Southern one.
[ There will be a transition period to ensure that there are no shocks for those involved ]

10. Military - the Irish Army will take over British Army bases in the North.

11. Flags/Anthems. The Tricolour to continue as the national flag. A new national anthem to be chosen. The Irish language version to be used at state events in the 26 counties and the English language version to be used at state events in the 6 counties.
[ To be honest I am not sure about this point ]


To be honest, I do not expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime. Just looking at it from a regional perspective, a united Ireland means a huge diminution in the status of Belfast which would lose its "capital" status and be a city just like Cork. Perhaps having the Dáil sit in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast could be looked at. The economics of a United Ireland will be a huge issue - but it is so far away that it isn't really possible to consider this today.
Good in theory but two things I have to have a go at.

If unionists had to go into an United Ireland, they'd have to have their own assembly type government. A federal Ireland is the only form of government in which a United Ireland could function without vicious uproar from unionist communities. Perhaps a federal Ireland would be better for the whole of the island as the Dáil in the Republic has too much power while the local councils have too little.

The Dáil sitting in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast would be a nuisance to politicians, administrators and journalists and it would cost too much money to do so.
 

death or glory

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
18,018
Blah, blah, blah.
Its not going to happen
 

runwiththewind

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
12,701
I stopped reading after you're first 14 words of point number 1.

To have ANY chance of convincing any sceptic on the merits of a "United Ireland", you'll have to come up with something new...something better....and something attractive.

Simply absorbing Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland is a bigger turn off than the thought of Barbara De Brun pole dancing.
For once, I agree with you. It can never be about absorption. Any UI will have to be about a new republic (The Third Republic), a new constitution (requiring a referendum for acceptance) emblems, etc. A complete redrawing of political constituencies with the number of TDs elected brought in line with European norms (representative per head of pop). Both countries have changed enormously over the last 10/15 years and it's no longer Catholic/Protestant. The Rep's population is predicted to increase by another million over the next 20 years. That will give up a population of 1 in 4 born abroad. That's a massive increase and will bring enormous changes, plus the first generation of immigrant children will be fully intergrated adults and hopefully be fully participating in all aspects of Irish society. Same applies to NI. How many will give a serious toss about traditional divides?
 

RedCloud

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Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,998
Just one wee problem............the vast majority of people on the Northern side of the border, do not want it.
Oops. :)
 

runwiththewind

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
12,701
Good in theory but two things I have to have a go at.

If unionists had to go into an United Ireland, they'd have to have their own assembly type government. A federal Ireland is the only form of government in which a United Ireland could function without vicious uproar from unionist communities. Perhaps a federal Ireland would be better for the whole of island as the Dáil in the Republic has too much power while the local councils have too little.

The Dáil sitting in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast would be a nuisance to politicians, administrators and journalists and it would cost too much money to do so.
I would abolish county councils in their entirely and set up provincial/regional councils and I wouldn't wait for an UI for that.

A federal Ireland just brings a further 4 layers of bureaucracy, not necessary and unaffordable. Besides federalism can bring division too and there is no call for in the provinces.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
2,001
Website
ga.wikipedia.org
For once, I agree with you. It can never be about absorption. Any UI will have to be about a new republic (The Third Republic), a new constitution (requiring a referendum for acceptance) emblems, etc. A complete redrawing of political constituencies with the number of TDs elected brought in line with European norms (representative per head of pop). Both countries have changed enormously over the last 10/15 years and it's no longer Catholic/Protestant. The Rep's population is predicted to increase by another million over the next 20 years. That will give up a population of 1 in 4 born abroad. That's a massive increase and will bring enormous changes, plus the first generation of immigrant children will be fully intergrated adults and hopefully be fully participating in all aspects of Irish society. Same applies to NI. How many will give a serious toss about traditional divides?
Of course it's going to be absorption by the Republic. There simply isn't any other alternative. A new constitution is not going to say anything much different than the old one. What would a new constitution say that the existing one doesn't?

The size of the Dáil is in line with the parliaments of the Scandinavian countries. That's not an issue.
 

physicist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
6,274
Good in theory but two things I have to have a go at.

If unionists had to go into an United Ireland, they'd have to have their own assembly type government. A federal Ireland is the only form of government in which a United Ireland could function without vicious uproar from unionist communities. Perhaps a federal Ireland would be better for the whole of the island as the Dáil in the Republic has too much power while the local councils have too little.

The Dáil sitting in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast would be a nuisance to politicians, administrators and journalists and it would cost too much money to do so.
Just as a mathematical exercise to the hypothetical above --- Looking at a 6 county extension to the Dail you would have from the 63 seats going proportionate to first preferences...


19 DUP, 17 SF, 8 UUP, 9 SDLP, 5 Alliance, 1 TUV, 3 Other Unionists, 1 Green and 1 left wing candidate.

Now add that to the current Dail tally:
Fine Gael (73)
Labour Party (33)
Fianna Fáil (19)
Sinn Féin (14)->31
People Before Profit (2)
Socialist Party (1)
WUAG (1)
Independents (21)
Vacant (1)
Ceann Comhairle (1)


What it would mean is that the current government would be 4 short of a majority a 111 block, Fine Gael would be 38 short, it would also mean Sinn Féin or indeed the Unionist bloc needing 79 other TDs more than double its to get into government while surrendering all power over the affairs of the 6 counties.
 

RahenyFG

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
9,206
Just as a mathematical exercise to the hypothetical above --- Looking at a 6 county extension to the Dail you would have from the 63 seats going proportionate to first preferences...


19 DUP, 17 SF, 8 UUP, 9 SDLP, 5 Alliance, 1 TUV, 3 Other Unionists, 1 Green and 1 left wing candidate.

Now add that to the current Dail tally:
Fine Gael (73)
Labour Party (33)
Fianna Fáil (19)
Sinn Féin (14)->31
People Before Profit (2)
Socialist Party (1)
WUAG (1)
Independents (21)
Vacant (1)
Ceann Comhairle (1)


What it would mean is that the current government would be 4 short of a majority a 111 block, Fine Gael would be 38 short, it would also mean Sinn Féin or indeed the Unionist bloc needing 79 other TDs more than double its to get into government while surrendering all power over the affairs of the 6 counties.
If that was the case and these figures were a reality in a UI, FG/Labour could add either Alliance or SDLP to their ranks.
 

physicist

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Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
6,274
Just one wee problem............the vast majority of people on the Northern side of the border, do not want it.
Oops. :)
The vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland don't even want the Parliament they have or to support the government of the UK most of the time either.
 

physicist

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Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
6,274
If that was the case and these figures were a reality in a UI, FG/Labour could add either Alliance or SDLP to their ranks.
I'll do the sums for a modern day Parliament of the Isles just to be fair. 697 seats with at least 47 for the 26 counties ... That would mean 17 Fine Gael, 10 Labour, 8 Fianna Fáil, 5 Independents, 5 more Sinn Féin, 1 United Left, 1 Green.

that would mean the Con-Dem government being 5 ahead in government, though if the 26 were given the sort of favourable treatment the North gets in seating terms that slim majority would go.
 
Last edited:

runwiththewind

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Apr 12, 2012
Messages
12,701
Of course it's going to be absorption by the Republic. There simply isn't any other alternative. A new constitution is not going to say anything much different than the old one. What would a new constitution say that the existing one doesn't?

The size of the Dáil is in line with the parliaments of the Scandinavian countries. That's not an issue.
For a start, all reference to God should be removed in a new constitution, except to guarantee religious liberty and freedom to all, and excepting any religion that threatens the state.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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For a start, all reference to God should be removed in a new constitution, except to guarantee religious liberty and freedom to all, and excepting any religion that threatens the state.
Even if that happened, it would make absolutely no difference to anyone in real life.
 

RedCloud

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Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,998
The vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland don't even want the Parliament they have or to support the government of the UK most of the time either.
We are the Government of the UK. :)

So sorry to have to inject reality into this fantacist thread BUT.........it's A Notion Once Again, and again, and again..........:)
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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Messages
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ga.wikipedia.org
What it would mean is that the current government would be 4 short of a majority a 111 block, Fine Gael would be 38 short, it would also mean Sinn Féin or indeed the Unionist bloc needing 79 other TDs more than double its to get into government while surrendering all power over the affairs of the 6 counties.
I agree that too many people have too much to lose for there to be a united Ireland anytime soon.
 

physicist

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Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
6,274
We are the Government of the UK. :)

So sorry to have to inject reality into this fantacist thread BUT.........it's A Notion Once Again, and again, and again..........:)
The majority of people on the electorate in Northern Ireland don't even vote for the 5 mainstream assembly parties taking up the majority of the seats combined, a minority of voters do. Whatever governing takes place here the people are slowly withdrawing from it.

In the offshot that you are one of the Tory or Whig MPs running the place up there don't you think you have better things to do like trying to deal with RBOS or the tripple bombshells of a high pension reserve, a toxicating student loan company, or the eternal taxation of nuclear decommissing to waste your time on this thread.
 

Plebian

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Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
9,342
Lots of posters seem to want a Green Paper for a United Ireland - so here's mine:

My Green Paper for a United Ireland

1. A united Ireland will happen by the 6 counties being incorporated into the Republic, similar to the way East Germany was incorporated into the existing West Germany.
[There will be no grandiose new Republic declared - simply a continuation of the existing state]

2. The Dáil will be increased in size proportionally to allow for the increase in population of the state.
[ Based on an existing Dáíl of 158 seats this would result in a new Dáil of approx 221 seats.]

3. The Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont will be abolished.
[ There are a couple of reasons for this:

a) the population of the 6 counties is too large relative to that of the country as a whole for it to be administered separately. A system where 6-county TDs are voting on issues affecting Munster, Leinster and Connacht but where Munster, Leinster and Connacht TDs cannot vote on issues affecting the 6 counties is simply undemocratic. This problem ("the West Lothian problem" as it is known in the UK) does not arise at present because NI is just 3% of the UK population.

b) in theory, you could have a federal system of government in Ireland, with provincial assemblies for Leinster, Munster and Connacht having the same powers as the Stormont Assembly currently has. In practice, there is no demand for provincial or regional assemblies in Ireland (similar to the situation in England). There is no point in creating unwanted regional assemblies in Dublin, Cork and Galway - it would be another unwanted layer of bureaucracy]


4. A committee of all TDs elected in the 6 counties will be formed to consider any issues of equality, etc. that might previously have been dealt with by the Assembly
[ I am not sure what powers this committee should actually have - possibly a majority of either unionists or nationalists to have the power to force the Dáíl to reconsider legislation/decisions that affect inter-community relations in the North.

Another consequence of this is that Dáil constituency boundaries will not cross the 6-county border ]


5. The PSNI will continue as a separate police force responsible to the government in the same way as the Garda Siochána.
[ This is probably necessary until the legal systems are synchronized ]

6. Legal - the legal system North and South will gradually be brought into line.
[ This will not be an overnight process - it might take many years ]

7. Education - the 6 county education system will continue unchanged. Irish will not be compulsory in the 6 counties.
[ Over time, a new national curriculum will be developed for North and South - this will be a long-term project ]

8. Health - the health system will be merged as quickly as possible, starting immediately.
[ There is no reason for there to be 2 separate administrations ]

9. Social Welfare - the Northern Social Welfare system will be gradually transformed into the Southern one.
[ There will be a transition period to ensure that there are no shocks for those involved ]

10. Military - the Irish Army will take over British Army bases in the North.

11. Flags/Anthems. The Tricolour to continue as the national flag. A new national anthem to be chosen. The Irish language version to be used at state events in the 26 counties and the English language version to be used at state events in the 6 counties.
[ To be honest I am not sure about this point ]


To be honest, I do not expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime. Just looking at it from a regional perspective, a united Ireland means a huge diminution in the status of Belfast which would lose its "capital" status and be a city just like Cork. Perhaps having the Dáil sit in alternate years in Dublin and Belfast could be looked at. The economics of a United Ireland will be a huge issue - but it is so far away that it isn't really possible to consider this today.
How to Win Friends and Influence People. Not!
 

Evergreenfinch

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Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
4,157
I have a simpler solution, if Nats/Reps want to live in the RoI, just pack your bags and fukk off to there!

I would be surprised if there are many Nationalists wanting an extension of the RoI. Hell does SF even want that?
 

RedCloud

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Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,998
I have a simpler solution, if Nats/Reps want to live in the RoI, just pack your bags and fukk off to there!

I would be surprised if there are many Nationalists wanting an extension of the RoI. Hell does SF even want that?
Alas our nat/rep chums don't do reality.
They much prefer Mope/wishful thinking land. :)
 
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