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My Reunion


LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
I went to an informal college reunion last night. Sufficed to say I'm surviving on Zantac and Solpadeine today. Anyway, I digress. There were approx twenty of my old classmates there. We're all in our late 30s. We all enjoyed the fruits of the Tiger and, like most people, felt invincible, that it would go on forever, so without exception we all have massive mortgages and huge business loans. However, all that optimism has long since evaporated. But it was such a psychological lift to see the old faces.

After the initial guarded banter, 'Sure I'm grand, how are you yourself?', a couple of drinks loosened tongues. It was terrifying. Of the twenty or so there approx half are emigrating after Christmas. Not thinking of it, but actually doing it, planned and organised. All have their houses on the market but most said if they don't sell and they can't rent them, feck it, they were going to hand back the keys and default. I was stunned. Genuinely. It had never occurred to me that these people would even be capable of this kind of talk but the consensus was that the country was so fecked, that it was bound to dump the mess onto the taxpaying middle classes and they simply weren't willing to sacrifice their and their kids futures on bailing out the mess. These are people in their late thirties with kids! I couldn't believe there was so much consensus. As you may know I have tentatively been looking at the option myself but most of my old classmates aren't tentative at all, plans made, houses on the market and jobs organised. These people would have been high earners, some are still although much less than three years ago, so I was a little taken aback but the confirmed mood of them all was that our situation is irredeemable, we have no viable way out and it's every man for himself.

This morning is a hangover in more ways than one, and I would discount the comments as drunken ramblings were it not for the detail in the plans- countries decided upon, tax rates discussed, jobs set up, schools investigated- so now I'm left thinking, am I the fool who hasn't copped on yet?!

If these guys, and earners like them, leave the tax pool our tax receipts are going to collapse. The exchequer deficit will worsen. I'm certainly more pessimistic of our chances this morning than I was yesterday morning.
 

firefighter

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
334
Ireland: the land of civil servants, retired civil servants, the unemployed, low quality immigrants who like our social welfare system and travellers.

Oh and all their sprogs.

I'd say there'll be plenty of business opportunities servicing welfare recipients: low cost booze, drugs (as we saw with the recent head shop phenomenon), baby equipment, gambling, personal injury claims and 2 week holidays in Playa de Ingles.
 

Catalpa

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Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,301
Sounds like a case of rats from a sinking ship

These boyos did well in the Good Times and now intend to cut and run when the vessel they were so happy to be on hits the rocks...:evil:

Leaving the other passengers to Sink or Swim!:eek:
 

firefighter

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
334
Modern communications (internet and low-cost airlines) facilitate economic mobility like never before.

Ireland needs a landed 1% and the remaining 99% in continual debt and totally dependant on the 1% to maintain any kind of social order.
 

LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
Sounds like a case of rats from a sinking ship

These boyos did well in the Good Times and now intend to cut and run when the vessel they were so happy to be on hits the rocks...:evil:

Leaving the other passengers to Sink or Swim!:eek:
I suppose it's everyman and woman for themselves. You can't expect people to suffer a crappy life when they have an option not to, but I was honestly blown away by both the numbers doing it and the depth of the planning. Once one person broke the Omertà everyone joined in. There was active discussion on the best schools to go to, the best tax rates available, where to get language lessons beforehand, it was damn scary.
 

TradCat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,992
Sounds like a case of rats from a sinking ship

These boyos did well in the Good Times and now intend to cut and run when the vessel they were so happy to be on hits the rocks...:evil:

Leaving the other passengers to Sink or Swim!:eek:
The captain is drunk at the wheel and thinks paying for the cargo is more important than avoiding the rocks. Time to hoist the Jolly Roger and change course.
 

SlabMurphy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,701
Website
www.dublin.ie
I went to an informal college reunion last night. Sufficed to say I'm surviving on Zantac and Solpadeine today. Anyway, I digress. There were approx twenty of my old classmates there. We're all in our late 30s. We all enjoyed the fruits of the Tiger and, like most people, felt invincible, that it would go on forever, so without exception we all have massive mortgages and huge business loans. However, all that optimism has long since evaporated. But it was such a psychological lift to see the old faces.

After the initial guarded banter, 'Sure I'm grand, how are you yourself?', a couple of drinks loosened tongues. It was terrifying. Of the twenty or so there approx half are emigrating after Christmas. Not thinking of it, but actually doing it, planned and organised. All have their houses on the market but most said if they don't sell and they can't rent them, feck it, they were going to hand back the keys and default. I was stunned. Genuinely. It had never occurred to me that these people would even be capable of this kind of talk but the consensus was that the country was so fecked, that it was bound to dump the mess onto the taxpaying middle classes and they simply weren't willing to sacrifice their and their kids futures on bailing out the mess. These are people in their late thirties with kids! I couldn't believe there was so much consensus. As you may know I have tentatively been looking at the option myself but most of my old classmates aren't tentative at all, plans made, houses on the market and jobs organised. These people would have been high earners, some are still although much less than three years ago, so I was a little taken aback but the confirmed mood of them all was that our situation is irredeemable, we have no viable way out and it's every man for himself.

This morning is a hangover in more ways than one, and I would discount the comments as drunken ramblings were it not for the detail in the plans- countries decided upon, tax rates discussed, jobs set up, schools investigated- so now I'm left thinking, am I the fool who hasn't copped on yet?!

If these guys, and earners like them, leave the tax pool our tax receipts are going to collapse. The exchequer deficit will worsen. I'm certainly more pessimistic of our chances this morning than I was yesterday morning.
Sound just like the conceited corrupt wannabe's from the Celtic Tiger era. They were the ones who voted and supported FF/PD regardless of scandal after scandal after scandal. They had and always will have rotten and corrupt values. And as for their " the tax pool our tax receipts are going to collapse ", their are plenty of young and eager graduates to take their place. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Simples.
 
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LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
Sound just like the conceited corrupt wannabe's from the Celtic Tiger era. They were the ones who voted and supported FF/PD regardless of scandal after scandal after scandal. They had and always will have rotten and corrupt values, good riddance to bad rubbish. And as for their " the tax pool our tax receipts are going to collapse ", their are plenty of young and eager graduates to take their place.

Simples.
Bless.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,459
The captain is drunk at the wheel and thinks paying for the cargo is more important than avoiding the rocks. Time to hoist the Jolly Roger and change course.
Well put. :) A start would be to introduce much better organisation and sophistication into the black economy. It is clear to everyone who cares to look at the facts and figures that the old economy can only wind down and good riddance. We should start working on the new one as soon as possible and to hell with the old one and the parasites who flourish on it. We need to get some real free enterprise dynamics going. Also important is how to gradually bring everyone across and keep them on-side, in particular, the Gardai and army, and those who are very bright and hard working.
 
Last edited:

LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
The Black Economy is flourishing. No one paid the restaurant bill with a credit card last night. ;)
 

ALAN42

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
84
I went to an informal college reunion last night. Sufficed to say I'm surviving on Zantac and Solpadeine today. Anyway, I digress. There were approx twenty of my old classmates there. We're all in our late 30s. We all enjoyed the fruits of the Tiger and, like most people, felt invincible, that it would go on forever, so without exception we all have massive mortgages and huge business loans. However, all that optimism has long since evaporated. But it was such a psychological lift to see the old faces.

After the initial guarded banter, 'Sure I'm grand, how are you yourself?', a couple of drinks loosened tongues. It was terrifying. Of the twenty or so there approx half are emigrating after Christmas. Not thinking of it, but actually doing it, planned and organised. All have their houses on the market but most said if they don't sell and they can't rent them, feck it, they were going to hand back the keys and default. I was stunned. Genuinely. It had never occurred to me that these people would even be capable of this kind of talk but the consensus was that the country was so fecked, that it was bound to dump the mess onto the taxpaying middle classes and they simply weren't willing to sacrifice their and their kids futures on bailing out the mess. These are people in their late thirties with kids! I couldn't believe there was so much consensus. As you may know I have tentatively been looking at the option myself but most of my old classmates aren't tentative at all, plans made, houses on the market and jobs organised. These people would have been high earners, some are still although much less than three years ago, so I was a little taken aback but the confirmed mood of them all was that our situation is irredeemable, we have no viable way out and it's every man for himself.

This morning is a hangover in more ways than one, and I would discount the comments as drunken ramblings were it not for the detail in the plans- countries decided upon, tax rates discussed, jobs set up, schools investigated- so now I'm left thinking, am I the fool who hasn't copped on yet?!

If these guys, and earners like them, leave the tax pool our tax receipts are going to collapse. The exchequer deficit will worsen. I'm certainly more pessimistic of our chances this morning than I was yesterday morning.
Shocking stuff . Ireland has been screwed by FF . It is on the brink of default with only Enda Kenny as a shining becon of hope . There is no plan for recovery and the guy who leads the place thinks it is ok to address the nation with a hangover . Emigrate ? Its time to flee .
 

slx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
883
I'm hearing similar stories from most of my friends aged 25-35. All of them are well qualified. there's just a strong sense that we didn't do this. Most of us couldn't get onto the property ladder and are renting and don't have any reason to stick around.

Personally, I would feel very sore about paying higher tax and putting up with declining services. I always felt that I was being shafted with ever increasing rents in Dublin by a grubby, know it all, BMW driving landlady who used to ring up every year too moan about how her mortgage payments were increasing, so she needed to increase the rent by a hundred quid. We challenged her one year and produced a snag list to be fixed and she went off the deepend with a big "how dare you... I'm horrified" rant.

The quality of accommodation and value for money here was and is ridiculous.

why would my generation feel that they should stick around and suffer for this grubby banking and landlord class who saw us as nothing but a way to make a quick buck. These parasites bled young graduates and the productive part of the economy dry during the boom.

I feel zero loyalty to them, their mandarins or their bought, corrupt sleazy political party.
 

LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
I'm hearing similar stories from most of my friends aged 25-35. All of them are well qualified. there's just a strong sense that we didn't do this. Most of us couldn't get onto the property ladder and are renting and don't have any reason to stick around.

Personally, I would feel very sore about paying higher tax and putting up with declining services. I always felt that I was being shafted with ever increasing rents in Dublin by a grubby, know it all, BMW driving landlady who used to ring up every year too moan about how her mortgage payments were increasing, so she needed to increase the rent by a hundred quid. We challenged her one year and produced a snag list to be fixed and she went off the deepend with a big "how dare you... I'm horrified" rant.

The quality of accommodation and value for money here was and is ridiculous.

why would my generation feel that they should stick around and suffer for this grubby banking and landlord class who saw us as nothing but a way to make a quick buck. These parasites bled young graduates and the productive part of the economy dry during the boom.

I feel zero loyalty to them, their mandarins or their bought, corrupt sleazy political party.
Now imagine you actually had some cash and assets. Are you going to hand it over in taxes to pay for the entitlement classes (PS workers and Quangos)? Neither will they.
 

rockofcashel

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Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
7,956
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
Of course your friends would feel like this.

This isn't even a widespread recession yet, it's a targeted middle class recession. Those on welfare have not really seen any change in their circumstances, right from old age pensioners to people who have habitually on the dole. The only real ones hit are the under 25's, but even then if they participate in some kind of nonsense training scheme they will have their full benefits returned.

But there are hundreds of thousands who relied on the construction industry, from very well paid professionals like architects, surveyors, engineers, solicitors etc, through to the very well paid tradespeople, brickies, sparks, chippies, plumbers etc, right down to the very well paid labourers, and then throw in the associated jobs, the building supplies companies, furniture shops, electrical goods stores etc etc etc .... whose jobs are gone.. and simply are not coming back.

They are gone and gone for good, for at least a decade, possibly a generation i.e. 25 years, if the experience of the Japanese housing bubble is anything to go by.

These people are suffering under mountains of private debt, never mind the public debt that the Government is trying to put onto anyone who can do a bit of work nowadays.

It is said by some, that we are not as bad as the recession in the 1980's. Well, I remember that recession, and I can tell you, this time it will be worse... because we are still a way away from the worst of it.

The difference between now and the 80's, is that while we had no money then either, at least we didn't owe a fortune in private debt.

Friends of mine, peers, family members.. we all have the same problem. We are working away, but every spare penny is going to pay for the mortgage, credit card bill, credit union loan etc. Ok, we took on these loans. We must bear responsibility for them. But we did so in a time, and with an expectation of continuing low taxes, continuing booming business conditions, continuing credit lines, continuing rise in share prices, continuing rises in wages, continuing payment of work bonuses etc etc etc ....

We were wrong. All of these things have been reined in, but we still have the debt. And now we are in that horrible cycle of not being able to afford consumer spending, which creates more unemployment, which creates a bigger burden on the state welfare system, which creates a need for an even larger amount of taxes and charges to be taken from those who do work, making it even harder on those who are sinking in the debt.

The same with the rise of the black economy. It is absolutely everywhere now, outside of Government work and the multi-national industry (their accountants still haven't found ways of telling HQ that "johnny down the road will do work for us 30% cheaper, but he mightn't pass an FDA audit".)

I got a phone call this morning, from two friends.. do I want to buy 200 cigs for €35 euro. That's €50 cheaper for an €85 product. Who wouldn't consider taking it up.. but it's also €50 less for the exchequer.

So, when people who have economic labour mobility consider moving.. how can you question them.

Individuals are rational. They are also greedy and selfish. If they can provide a better life for themselves and their kids, they will. I've thought about it myself. I've considered moving to Australia with my family, not so much for economic reasons, but to give them the opportunity of experiencing a different kind of life to Ireland. So it doesn't surprise me that others have.

And as for handing back the keys. Why wouldn't many consider it. Declare yourself bankrupt, settle as much as you can, get on a plane, and come back in twelve years. Debt free. For many young people 12 years is nothing in their lives. They'd be back in their late 30's or early 40's.. with a tan.. and debt free.
 

Fantasia

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Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
920
I want to go back home but I cannot afford the cost of beer -5 euro pints! And here is my fav complaint - Lidl sells a 6 pack of Bergadler Pils up the strasse from me for €2.10. I pay €8.50 for the exact same Brau in Rathfarnham Lidl!

If they binned Anglo they could afford to keep every booze loving man and woman in the country in free beer till the next ice age.
 

firefighter

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Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
334
I want to go back home but I cannot afford the cost of beer -5 euro pints! And here is my fav complaint - Lidl sells a 6 pack of Bergadler Pils up the strasse from me for €2.10. I pay €8.50 for the exact same Brau in Rathfarnham Lidl!

If they binned Anglo they could afford to keep every booze loving man and woman in the country in free beer till the next ice age.
There's a lot to be said for taking the €200 a week plus rent allowance and make sure you live beside a Tescos/Lidl.

You could do a few nixers. I know of one individual who rents out the space in front of his council house to someone who works in An Bord Pleanala for €50 a week. On-street parking is €20 a day.
 

LeDroit

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Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
If they binned Anglo they could afford to keep every booze loving man and woman in the country in free beer till the next ice age.
Where were you on Sept 28th 2008?!
 

myksav

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May 13, 2008
Messages
23,546
I feel oddly unsympathetic for your 10 emigrating friends, even if I comprehend their mental start point. They grew up in an era of dropping tax rates, became adult in a low tax enviroment and see that tax level as a natural maximum.

If they want to emigrate, that is their right as long as they have the necessary visa's for the countries they wish to go to.

Though some would see these people emigrating as a fair exchange, if they still have jobs, that's 10 jobs freed up for others, if they're on SW, that will save the State some money.
Though the idea of handing back the the keys to the bank and defaulting without penalty isn't a Right here.
 

LeDroit

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Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
I feel oddly unsympathetic for your 10 emigrating friends, even if I comprehend their mental start point. They grew up in an era of dropping tax rates, became adult in a low tax enviroment and see that tax level as a natural maximum.

If they want to emigrate, that is their right as long as they have the necessary visa's for the countries they wish to go to.

Though some would see these people emigrating as a fair exchange, if they still have jobs, that's 10 jobs freed up for others, if they're on SW, that will save the State some money.
Though the idea of handing back the the keys to the bank and defaulting without penalty isn't a Right here.
They're all business owners with employees. When they go there'll be approx 120 more people on the dole and trust me no one is queuing up to re start their businesses.
 
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