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Riadach

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One who isn't from Ireland could be forgiven for assuming Myers is English, surely? He seems English in outlook and accent.
Not to mention being so by birth.
 

Toland

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Probably one of my final posts on this forum for awhile which I'm sure will please some of my green comrades petunia

Myers, usually a cringe worthy know-it-all but he's hit the nail on the proverbial head with his latest piece, a few uncomfortable truths about Ireland and the Irish. We do need to take a good long hard look in the mirror sometime. it's not always someones else fault :roll:





Kevin Myers: Isn't a childish desire to be popular a reason why our toenails are teetering on the abyss? - Analysis, Opinion - Independent.ie
Myers is probably right at least twice a day on the stopped clock principle. To be honest, it's his breathless adolescent writing style that gets me more than his opinions, some of which are not all that wrong.
 

Analyzer

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There is nothing wrong with some reflection, and self criticism.

It is certainly more useful, in the long run than the cringe fest that was the ShowBama visit, the cring fest that is the Pesidential election, and the croinge fest that will be the obsession with the state budget, and all the fruitless moaning in coming months.
 

Estragon

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He's the proverbial empty vessel.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Sometimes I like Myers because he has the guts to say things that are true but not 'PC.' But this one...whew...I'm surprised he put his name on it. It seems like a theme where he sought 'facts' to support them, and it's just plain false, especially by citing American Irish history. I guess he doesn't listen to the car radio much or like Motorola phones given an Irish American, Paul Galvin, invented that and founded that firm, or play chess much given one of the best of all time and considered the greatest of the 1800s in chess circles was Paul Morphy. Heck, he need look no further than his own shoes given an O'Sullivan invented that. Irish Catholics in the US played a key prominent role from the earliest time until today in infrastructual improvements and not just as hammer and nail types but actual architecture. Los Angeles even gets its water thanks to an Irish Catholic immigrant, Mulholland. Heck, even the White House and other key US government buildings were designed by an Irishman, James Hoban. NASA has had heavy Irish American involvement....you name the field, and they've had major roles in them. He's especially off his rocker insofar as Irish success in the arts where the list is long in Ireland and especially the US.

As for his Protestant angle, it's also heavily flawed. The Ulster Protestants have Irish roots genetically too given Scotland was settled by Irish Gaels and via intermarriage following their return with the Plantation. In the US, whilst the Irish overall have been second only to the Jews insofar as success, it's the 'Scotch Irish' as they call them that form the poorest class of the whites in Appalachia and Southern areas. Yet, Ulster Protestants have had the highest percent of elected Presidents from Jackson to Clinton and Bush. Others have Irish Gaelic blood but were Protestant, such as Obama (Kearney and Donovan, Protestants by conversion in Ireland, Reagan's father was Irish Catholic but raised Protestant, etc). Being Protestant therefore isn't a blood line issue at all.

In the US, Ulster Protestants who went to the hills or settled the South experienced factors that put them behind such as being isolated, having an agrarian slave driven economy shattered by a Civil War and then left to wither on the vine by an angry North that was booming economically and liked to keep it that way, etc. Many of the Protestants who made prominence or President did so from both the North and South until the Civil War and afterwards from the North. Catholics got the sh!t end of the stick in Irish politics that kept them surpressed and it had its lasting effects that take time to overcome. They had to struggle against discrimination and the effects of arriving in an impoverished and uneducated status in the US to get up over time.

It is, however, an issue of money and environment. The reason Protestants did so well in Ireland is because of the superior social positions they had for so long insofar as land ownership, legal rights, schooling, etc. Who got the best lands, civil rights, and opportunities in Ulster for example...Catholics or Protestants? How about the rest of Ireland until recent times.

Even Sir Edward Carson understood that when arguing for a Catholic university. He was after all a liberal at heart. He gave the same advice to the Protestants of Ulster with the new statelet: "From the outset let us see that the Catholic minority have nothing to fear from Protestant majority. While maintaining our own religion, let us give the same rights to the religion of our neighbours". His advice was not followed and Catholics faced discrimination, and this continued to keep an angry underclass in place by design with all its ill effects just as it did when Ireland in full was under Protestant control to Protestant benefit at Catholic expense.

It's self-evident enough to me just to note my own family and the circumstances. My father is from a Catholic family that was poor and my father starting out in a council house. His family were part of the mass of poor tenant farmers created over the centuries. My mother grew up on massive acreage with a castle and manor home, all benefit of Protestant privilege and gentry in origin. Yet given the chance, he went to America that gave him a chance and made himself into a multimillionaire from work at NASA through growing a business chain into a major multibillion dollar operation.

He cites Tallaght. Conveniently he seems to forget the 'plainer' parts of working class and social welfare planned areas of Glasgow, Belfast, London, major sections of north England, etc. Ireland barely experimented with block towers and tore them down like at Ballymun. How is Tower Hamlet doing these days, though? Block towers are still seen in the UK in cities. The UK and its Protestant heritage has plenty working class plain cities and town and its fair share of problems. Heck, elements just tried to burn down and loot much of it. I'd feel safer in Tallaght than in other sections of UK areas.

It's always easy for those who start off in good situation to blame and piss down on those who weren't so lucky and especially when the circumstances were arranged that way. It's not an excuse for bad living by the poor, but when discrimination was also at play like as to who built Dublin's nicest sections and who did and didn't become society's great creators and brain surgeons at times when Catholics had little rights and were kept down for Protestant gain is an unfair claim. But one can see others coming for the Catholic computer techs now who have had the chance given to them.
 
R

RepublicanSocialist1798

Interesting post by the way O'SB.

Seriously though I would not worry about the ramblings of idiots like Myers or Schomberg. Someone earlier referred to them as self hating jews. Theyre not. Both absolutely hate the concept of a free and independent Ireland and both wish to a return for the nations subservience to mother England.

They are not Irish and why they remain in this country is a mystery to me.

Really their work should be committed "to the flames" as Hume said.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Interesting post by the way O'SB.

Seriously though I would not worry about the ramblings of idiots like Myers or Schomberg. Someone earlier referred to them as self hating jews. Theyre not. Both absolutely hate the concept of a free and independent Ireland and both wish to a return for the nations subservience to mother England.

They are not Irish and why they remain in this country is a mystery to me.

Really their work should be committed "to the flames" as Hume said.
I can only speak for myself but assuming anyone feels that way for the sake of the argument, they are Irish, and that's the point. IMO, it's like having Pat Delaney or Paul Higgins say "I'm French or Scandinavian" respectively because they have Norman or Viking ancestry way back. We're not talking first and second generation here for almost all people...we're talking 20 generations of being born and bred in Ireland in the case of Plantation settlers and maybe 10-20 for others like Huguenots or English gentry settlers. I have some of that ancestry myself, including Palatine German from the 1700s. I don't consider myself German. It's just too long ago and too long in Ireland to make a case for that. I'm foreign to Germany, England, Scotland, France and Scandinavia because I am.
 

Dasayev

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former wesleyan

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