N.Ireland as a federal state within Ireland.

S.Down

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The union in britian itself has been a bit shakey since devolution. The Tories seem to want to hammer the final nail in the coffin. In a way I suppose it was only a matter of time and the Scots may very well vote for independence in the future.

What are are your views/thoughts on N.Ireland becoming a federal state within Ireland?
The culture, politics, history up here has morphed into one of its own seperate from the south, not to mention the demographics.

Would some sort of political autonomy within an all-Ireland be the best way to go for everyone up here, especally with the whole identity thing?

How exactly would it work in an all Ireland, pros and cons?
..and if you disgree with the idea, what would you suggest be the realistic alternatives?


Its an open debate, feel free to speak your mind.



PS: No bile and bitching lads, keep it cival..or at the very least constructive. :wink:
 


Jim84

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It really depends on what powers this Federal state would have and what counties it would incorporate
 

S.Down

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Elaborate.
 

Sidewinder

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If we assume Unification is imminent, just for the purposes of debate...

In the short term I'd say the only way to rebalance the northern economy and introduce the populace to the joys of normal Constitutional government is through a Unitary State (and get them out of their zero-sum bubble mentality). A semi-autonomous Norn Irn would never really heal. The people need released from that insular asylum, not locked up in it forever.

Also, 2/3 of the land area of the North is majority Nationalist, and most of that at least 65%+ Nationalist. Bit unfair on them to keep them at arms length. Be nearly as insulting as being left behind in Orangistan in 1920 was.

You could perhaps make an argument to re-partition and have parts of East Derry, South Antrim, North Down and North Armagh as a semi-autonomous entity, but then you have the thorny problem of West Belfast and Moyle.

And the rump Norn Irn would have to have serious oversight mechanisms from the Federal authority to prevent Unionism backsliding into their tired old supremacism against the remaining nationalists under their control.

No, I think the only reason people advocate this is because they dislike the idea of having to put up with a lunatic Paisleyite element in the Dáil (and who could blame them) - but it just isn't workable and would solve nothing. Paisleyism will only fade and mellow once it is forced to play in a grown-up arena of settled liberal democracy. Locking them up wallowing in their own shite just leaves them as a permament threat to the rest of us and a source of instability and problems on the island for generations to come.

We just have to swallow hard, bring them in, and show them how to act like civilised people in the 21st century. Unpleasant, but there you go. You can't choose your family.
 
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If/when the union does dissolve , I think the first choice of many people, especially Protestants, would be for developing closer political ties with Scotland, rather than the ROI. I believe there would be plenty of support for this in the west of Scotland and it follows historical patterns.
If that was not possible, the least they would accept would be similar to the extensive regional automony gained by the Catalans in Spain, which amounts to virtual independence.
Even with this, there would have to be many extensive and fundamental changes required with the Irish state itself before Northern Protestants could feel comfortableliving in the Irish state.
 

Jim84

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It would have to be all of Ulster, not just the six counties

The state can have no control over corporate taxation, law, police, army... No foreign policy preview.
 

S.Down

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Would the people of Donagal and Monaghan take a step back to round off the whole province of ulster into the state to make it more atheistically pleasing on the map?
 

Jim84

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shankillmoamer said:
there would have to be many extensive and fundamental changes required with the Irish state itself before Northern Protestants could feel comfortableliving in the Irish state.
Like what? Southern Protestants have no problems living in Ireland
 

Jim84

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S.Down said:
Would the people of Donagal and Monaghan take a step back to round off the whole province of ulster into the state to make it more atheistically pleasing on the map?
That's not the reason. So Catholic and Protestants would be closer to 50-50, something the British architects of the 1922 treaty wanted
 
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I think given the events of 1922, when many thousands were murdered, and tens of thousands were forced out by the IRA, the southern Protestant witnessed their community numbers tumble, to the extent that they no longer posed any sort of political or numerical threat to the catholic nationalists.
After De Valeras sectarian constitution they just kept their heads down and keep their opinions to themselves. As their are over 1 million Protestants in Northern Ireland, who knows what the future holds for them.
Even during the peace process, every Iirsh Prime minister has always acted on behalf of northern nationalists. Do they still not want to recognise that Unionists form part of their nation , and therefore need no help or reassurance?
 

Sidewinder

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Jim84 said:
shankillmoamer said:
there would have to be many extensive and fundamental changes required with the Irish state itself before Northern Protestants could feel comfortableliving in the Irish state.
Like what? Southern Protestants have no problems living in Ireland
The likes of this boyo still believe we're all secretly controlled by the Hive-Mind in Rome :roll:

We'd have to renounce and ban the Catholic Church, ban the GAA, abolish the Irish language, rejoin the Commonwealth, have a picture of Queenie in every home, paint the kerbstones red-white-and-blue, take up marching anywhere we aren't wanted and turn the Defence Forces into a regiment of the British Army. And he still wouldn't be happy.
 

S.Down

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Jim84 said:
S.Down said:
Would the people of Donagal and Monaghan take a step back to round off the whole province of ulster into the state to make it more atheistically pleasing on the map?
That's not the reason. So Catholic and Protestants would be closer to 50-50, something the British architects of the 1922 treaty wanted
But why would they want to be a part of this mess?

50/50 numbers is hardly gonna entice them into it.
 

Sidewinder

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shankillmoamer said:
I think given the events of 1922, when many thousands were murdered, and tens of thousands were forced out by the IRA, the southern Protestant witnessed their community numbers tumble, to the extent that they no longer posed any sort of political or numerical threat to the catholic nationalists.
After De Valeras sectarian constitution they just kept their heads down and keep their opinions to themselves. As their are over 1 million Protestants in Northern Ireland, who knows what the future holds for them.
Even during the peace process, every Iirsh Prime minister has always acted on behalf of northern nationalists. Do they still not want to recognise that Unionists form part of their nation , and therefore need no help or reassurance?
:roll:
 

Jim84

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In 1922 we were two busy fighting each other to mount any pogrom against the Protestant population.
 
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We'd have to renounce and ban the Catholic Church, ban the GAA, abolish the Irish language, rejoin the Commonwealth, have a picture of Queenie in every home, paint the kerbstones red-white-and-blue, take up marching anywhere we aren't wanted and turn the Defence Forces into a regiment of the British Army. And he still wouldn't be happy.
no that would be a good start :lol:
 

S.Down

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Northern prodestants do have these fears and anxieties, it can't be ignored.

The hate mongers up here on both sides thrive on promoting this two steps back one step foward approach to politics, beating us over the head with history books at any available opportunity.

They're doing nothing for nobody, yet we lap it up and play along anyway because we reckon they're on 'our side'.

Both sides are being dosed with same poisen.
 
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I think the Northern Ireland conflict can only ever end when both traditions deal with the reality of the situation.
Unionists must accept, that the nationalist concept of a United Irish state is a legitimate aspiration, and as long as they use peaceful means to obtain it, then they must accept such aspirations. Unionists must accept that many wrongs were commited in the past, but that these wrongs have largely been righted, in part by the British government.
Nationalists must accept that Northern Ireland exists as a political entity, and is currently part of the UK because the majority within N.Ireland want it to be so.Nationalists must also accept that Unionists in Northern Ireland believe themselves to constsitute a separate ethnic group, and hold their British identity as sacroscant. They will not suddenly become Irish patriots once the British presence is ended, they constitute the British presence in Ireland. Deal with it.
The British government have done well to put a political solution in place, the principle of majority consent, and to have defeated the IRA terrorist campaign. They should recognise they have a duty of care to the 1.2 million unionists of Northern Ireland who consider themselves British citizens, and act as guarantors of fair play, not persuaders for unity .
The Irish government should stop being so one sided in their policies towards the nationalist community, and seriously embrace the Unionist community if they are serious about winning the unity of the island. If unionists are too be convinced of the benefits of Irish unity, the Irish government seriously need to reassess their Northern Strategy.

Ultimately, both nationalist and unionist must accept the staus quo, until the majority deem different, and work together to ensure a better life for all the citizens of the Northern Ireland.
 

S.Down

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The status quo?

You think its a good thing?
 

Jim84

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The status quo is a political vacuum .. Because Paisleys refusal to enter government with the nationalist democratically elected officials
 

Sidewinder

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shankillmoamer said:
They should recognise they have a duty of care to the 1.2 million unionists of Northern Ireland who consider themselves British citizens
There's about 870,000 Protestants in the north. Now, you can believe that survey which said hundreds of thousands of Catholics are all for the Union if you want, but I'm telling you it's a pack of lies. I know one northern Catholic who doesn't want a United Ireland. And he's originally from Donegal!

If they love the Union so much, how come precisely none of them vote for pro-Union parties?
 


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