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National Broadband - is this amazing leadership, electioneering or a corrupt waste of tax - what do you think?


The NBP as is currently proposed looks like a bad deal for the tax payers

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 72.2%
  • No

    Votes: 5 27.8%

  • Total voters
    18

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
11,426
There are some people who will use rural broadband not for good- but for nefarious purposes. Some people say in Listowel, who might not be looking up company share prices or sports results, but the "dark" side of the web.
Wasn't there a Dublin banker once who used his office computer to look at things beyond a strict interpretation of his role?
 


artfoley56

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
9,658
Ehhhh, we're talking about other telecoms/infrastructure companies here, not the citizens of North Korea. Given the current publicity about the NBP, any company that could do the same job for less would most definitely be letting the world know.
who said it was north korea. we're talking about the republic of nod and wink. silence will be rewarded in other ways
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,385
Returning from a walk along the East pier in Dun Laoghaire, I was looking at the progress being made on the old baths' site. Another waste of money, no chance of anything like a return on the investment but it will be a very pleasant facility for those who use it - one person's waste of money is another's public amenity.
 

artfoley56

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
9,658
Wasn't there a Dublin banker once who used his office computer to look at things beyond a strict interpretation of his role?
and he would've got away with it if it wasn't for the pesky IT lads whose terms and conditions he had ridden a horse and four through a few months previous.

moral of the story: never p1$$ off IT
 

artfoley56

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
9,658
Returning from a walk along the East pier in Dun Laoghaire, I was looking at the progress being made on the old baths' site. Another waste of money, no chance of anything like a return on the investment but it will be a very pleasant facility for those who use it - one person's waste of money is another's public amenity.
itll attract footfall to dun laoghaire which in turn will help the local businesses and it wont cost anything like 5bn or enrich people who don't have kitchens.

a more apt comparator would be the lexicon
 

deepness

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
2,555
I disagree. Failed installations are caused by little problems like blocked ducts and trees in the way, which have simple solutions, albeit ones that can take time to implement. I'd be curious to know if there is a single case of a failed installation that had no technical solution possible.

This type of issue should not be a concern for a 25+ year project.

As regards cuts and breaks, I'm sure that happens, and I notice that Eir has spent quite a bit of money putting cables underground where I live (in a rural area). That's up to the contractor to decide. The trade-off is up front cost and less maintenance long term versus the other way round. Again, not something that should be a consideration when deciding on the technology imo.

On future proofing, I repeat the point, when dialup modems were all we had, DSL and broadband generally was on the horizon. We knew it was coming. There is nothing on the horizon to replace fibre. Wireless is snake-oil. Every generation promises the earth and delivers only incremental improvements, but has no prospect imo of solving the scalability problem.
Thats not what you said though, you said it worked everywhere. It doesn't. If it did, this plan wouldnt include an element of wireless for the last 5-10% and you know what, like the spend on this that figure will grow.. That's not solely down to cost either,.

As regards, trees and ducts being "little problems". Thats way off the mark, if you knew the expense people have to go to to get a duct unblocked, a collapsed duct replaced or to get rid of big trees where its OTA....and thats in areas where fibre is viable..

When you get to dedicated business connections its even worse..the civils can be extensive and expensive.

As regards cuts and breaks, it happens frequently, even underground, but more so from the DP to the customers premises....and for a multitude of reasons.

Wireless works very well when its done right but its not always done right. Despite the perception of most, wireless is used for backhaul in fixed networks. People seem to disregard that or just not know or care. Thats why Eir, Vodafone, Virgin etc have a presence on high sites. Its not all for mobile.

5G is not proven in any shape or form, or disproven either for that matter, so no-one can say its going to be a solution yet or not. No-one, not you or I, or Leo or Dickie Bruton.

However, It will always be short range which is why it needs so many access points, but it doesnt need big masts everywhere either like is being touted. It is unproven, just like low orbit sattelite but to say there is nothing being tested or on the horizon to replace or compete with fibre is just plain wrong.
 

Northsideman

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Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
9,520
But if that potential exists, other bidders would be in already, trying to get the contract from the state in order to do precisely what you're suggesting - and they could tender lower than Granaham McCourt, while still, by your logic, making a healthy profit.
So why isn't that happening?
I'm not suggesting anything I'm asking the question will there be a clause in the contract to prevent it being flipped at a profit? There should be.
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,385
itll attract footfall to dun laoghaire which in turn will help the local businesses and it wont cost anything like 5bn or enrich people who don't have kitchens.

a more apt comparator would be the lexicon
Have you been in the Lexicon lately? its incredibly busy, mostly women bringing children to the children's section and students using laptops rather than people browsing or borrowing books.
 

artfoley56

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
9,658
Have you been in the Lexicon lately? its incredibly busy, mostly women bringing children to the children's section and students using laptops rather than people browsing or borrowing books.
oh I know its busy, the point being it cost 37m, and there was a lovely little library at the bottom of georges st that could've been upgraded.
 

riddles

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
277
They could run fibre to these former Coilte sites and then bounce the singles around.
Get communities interested to support the implementation of masts. Anyone who wants can get broadband - okay it may be poor quality and expensive but I think 3bn for people stream Netflix and the like is just nonsense. Like metro North nice to have nonsense. All this nonsense about a jobs boom in rural communities with the arrival of broadband is laughable. I live in a town with extremely high broadband speeds and a decent proximity to Dublin airport. There hasn't been serious jobs creation in the 18 years I have lived here.

It's not amusing when you get your pay slip and you see how much goes in tax. Absolutely zero return on the tax and money squandered left right and centre. On the flip side it just speeds up our journey to next financial collapse. We will have 2 to 1 the ratio of tax payers to non TP in about 30 years - its 5-1 at the moment and look how stoney broke we are. We do great Ostriech stuff here. Everyone should get a free house and high speed broadband in it. Can't pay your debts don't worry write them off and Joe public will pick up the tab. D'ont fancy a job - no hassle we can feed, house and clothe you from cradle grave with zero expectation in return.

14 million a day interest payments. The CSO’s Government Finance Statistics report shows government debt rose to €206 billion last year, up from €201 billion in 2017, and remains one of the highest per-capita debt burdens in Europe.
 
Last edited:

Orbit v2

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Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,640
Thats not what you said though, you said it worked everywhere. It doesn't.
It can be made to work everywhere. That is a fact.
If it did, this plan wouldnt include an element of wireless for the last 5-10% and you know what, like the spend on this that figure will grow.. That's not solely down to cost either,.
You can't even guarantee that all of the last 5-10% can be covered by wireless. If they are down a big coverage hole, then NOTHING will bring a radio signal to them.
As regards, trees and ducts being "little problems". Thats way off the mark, if you knew the expense people have to go to to get a duct unblocked, a collapsed duct replaced or to get rid of big trees where its OTA....and thats in areas where fibre is viable..
I know exactly what is involved as I had to do it myself. I considered installing a new duct but instead cut down a small tree to bring it in OTA. You can barely see the cable it's so thin and means I can now get rid of the existing copper cables for the multiple POTS lines I had.
When you get to dedicated business connections its even worse..the civils can be extensive and expensive.
If people want it they will pay. I've never heard of anyone who wanted high speed broadband and who has fibre at their gate, complaining about the cost. If they don't want it they can continue with wireless dongles, until they decide they do.
However, It will always be short range which is why it needs so many access points, but it doesnt need big masts everywhere either like is being touted. It is unproven, just like low orbit sattelite but to say there is nothing being tested or on the horizon to replace or compete with fibre is just plain wrong.
Then, tell me what is on the horizon to replace or compete with fibre?
 

wombat

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Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,385
Then, tell me what is on the horizon to replace or compete with fibre?
Since the horizon can be seen, there is nothing currently visible to compete with fibre. Its fair enough to argue about cost or whether people in rural Ireland need fibre but its not correct to claim that there are magic technologies available as an alternative.
 

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
11,426
They could run fibre to these former Coilte sites and then bounce the singles around.
Get communities interested to support the implementation of masts.
[...]

Why do we never hear demands for Dublin communities to fund the various infrastructural projects they benefit from?

It's not amusing when you get your pay slip and you see how much goes in tax. Absolutely zero return on the tax and money squandered left right and centre.

[...]
Now inagine what it's like for those who live outside Dublin. They pay the same taxes as the Dubs and they watch as those taxes are spent in the Capital while the few remaining public services in their own areas are withdrawn or downgraded.
 

riddles

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
277
[...]

Why do we never hear demands for Dublin communities to fund the various infrastructural projects they benefit from?



Now inagine what it's like for those who live outside Dublin. They pay the same taxes as the Dubs and they watch as those taxes are spent in the Capital while the few remaining public services in their own areas are withdrawn or downgraded.
It’s not economically viable to hook up every house for mains water and sewage but it is a requirement to deliver broadband? There are examples of communities who got together to set it up. If you decide to live somewhere you have to be prepared for trade off’s.
 

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
11,426
It’s not economically viable to hook up every house for mains water and sewage but it is a requirement to deliver broadband? There are examples of communities who got together to set it up. If you decide to live somewhere you have to be prepared for trade off’s.
Are the Luas, Dart and Dublin bus economically viable without public monies?
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,385
Are the Luas, Dart and Dublin bus economically viable without public monies?
The reason we have public services is because they are not economically attractive to the private sector. We have been brainwashed by media talking heads into thinking that everything can be measured in terms of cost. The classic example is Ardnacrusha which would never have happened if it had been judged on a strict cost/benefit study.
 

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