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Natural And Imprescriptible


General Mayhem

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Joined
Sep 20, 2011
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11,198
What are the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child, exactly? Have they been specified already or will they be specified after the power to enforce them has been put in place?

One natural and imprescriptible right I would assume a child has is: the right to a father and mother.

There are plenty of sources which claim that children of single parents or same-sex couples are disadvantaged; i.e. their safety or welfare is prejudicially affected.

In theory therefore, these children could be removed to adoptive parents without any further legislation. Perhaps even at birth. Certainly there are a lot of prospective adoptive parents in Ireland who cannot at present obtain an Irish baby.

Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by? We know how badly that turned out.

Why would anyone in their right mind (and concerned for children) vote yes for this?
 
B

Boggle

What are the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child, exactly? Have they been specified already or will they be specified after the power to enforce them has been put in place?

One natural and imprescriptible right I would assume a child has is: the right to a father and mother.

There are plenty of sources which claim that children of single parents or same-sex couples are disadvantaged; i.e. their safety or welfare is prejudicially affected.

In theory therefore, these children could be removed to adoptive parents without any further legislation. Perhaps even at birth. Certainly there are a lot of prospective adoptive parents in Ireland who cannot at present obtain an Irish baby.

Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by? We know how badly that turned out.

Why would anyone in their right mind (and concerned for children) vote yes for this?
Why mention gay couples and not single parents?
Anyway, you cannot have a right to parents... it's not physically possible.

I would like to know what is meant by natural and imprescriptible.
 

Radix

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Aug 31, 2010
Messages
10,031
Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by?

Bishop Gilmore would certainly like to think so. He is reported to have said about the referendum that if the State had been able to do this long ago, the scandal of abuse would never have occurred.

He neglects of course the recent uncovering of the abuse of young men in our prisons.

Or the State's involvement in the recent Roscommon Incest Case which made this even more necessary.
 

Cato

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Aug 21, 2005
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20,561
Well, whatever it means, the phrase is already present in the Constitution, so this is not introducing anything novel.
 

Red_93

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Mar 20, 2010
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4,678
These rights will be determined by the supreme court. They derive from what is known as "natural law" - which is unwritten and comes from within, or above, depending on your beliefs. The constitution only specifies about a few different rights, yet because of natural law the courts can use the constitution to specify more rights.
 

Schuhart

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Jul 24, 2006
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4,844
I would like to know what is meant by natural and imprescriptible.
You'll look in vain. It's a Dev era phrase which, in his mind, meant "The rights given to you by God, as intermediated by the Roman Catholic Church".

To quote Jeremy Bentham
Jeremy Bentham - Wikiquote

Natural rights is simple nonsense: natural and imprescriptible rights, rhetorical nonsense — nonsense upon stilts.
 

statsman

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
56,230
What are the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child, exactly? Have they been specified already or will they be specified after the power to enforce them has been put in place?

One natural and imprescriptible right I would assume a child has is: the right to a father and mother.

There are plenty of sources which claim that children of single parents or same-sex couples are disadvantaged; i.e. their safety or welfare is prejudicially affected.

In theory therefore, these children could be removed to adoptive parents without any further legislation. Perhaps even at birth. Certainly there are a lot of prospective adoptive parents in Ireland who cannot at present obtain an Irish baby.

Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by? We know how badly that turned out.

Why would anyone in their right mind (and concerned for children) vote yes for this?
In what sense does a child have a 'right' to a father and mother? Don't confuse biology and rights; next thing you know we'll all have rights to eyesight.
 

Mountaintop

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May 19, 2011
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1,263
You'll look in vain. It's a Dev era phrase which, in his mind, meant "The rights given to you by God, as intermediated by the Roman Catholic Church".
We could wax lyrical about the jurisprudence of natural law ...you quote Bentham...I go back to Aquinas..and so it goes until Shenana clears it all up...

Getting back to the Op's 'assumption' that a child has a natural and imprescribeable right to a mother and father..well, ...it's simply not the case.

Without touching any of the hornets nest issues...eg. Gay parents, single parents....simply put...

If this assumption were true..every orphan, no matter how he/she came to be orphaned, could take a case against the state.
 

ppcoyle

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Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
1,997
In what sense does a child have a 'right' to a father and mother? Don't confuse biology and rights; next thing you know we'll all have rights to eyesight.
Simply because children are in a dependency state for quite some years, as physical development and brain maturation occurs. Without parents children would grow up feral. You understand neither 'biology' or 'rights'.
 

Mercurial

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Jun 4, 2009
Messages
88,215
What are the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child, exactly? Have they been specified already or will they be specified after the power to enforce them has been put in place?

One natural and imprescriptible right I would assume a child has is: the right to a father and mother.

There are plenty of sources which claim that children of single parents or same-sex couples are disadvantaged; i.e. their safety or welfare is prejudicially affected.

In theory therefore, these children could be removed to adoptive parents without any further legislation. Perhaps even at birth. Certainly there are a lot of prospective adoptive parents in Ireland who cannot at present obtain an Irish baby.

Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by? We know how badly that turned out.

Why would anyone in their right mind (and concerned for children) vote yes for this?
Is there a natural right not to be compelled to be the parent of a child, even if you would do a good job raising it?

Suppose for example you live in a society where everyone (except you and your infertile spouse) has once child. One of the other couples in the society is killed, leaving their young child an orphan. Are you now under a moral duty to raise that child as your own?
 

Mercurial

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Simply because children are in a dependency state for quite some years, as physical development and brain maturation occurs. Without parents children would grow up feral. You understand neither 'biology' or 'rights'.
Children raised in orphanages don't become feral...
 

statsman

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Feb 25, 2011
Messages
56,230
Simply because children are in a dependency state for quite some years, as physical development and brain maturation occurs. Without parents children would grow up feral. You understand neither 'biology' or 'rights'.
Complete and utter nonsense.

Children may well benefit from being brought up by a dedicated adult or adults, but they will not become feral is brought up in a well-run orphanage. Also, the dedicated adult(s) do not have to be the child's parents, or a man and a woman.

So let us accept that there are or may be benefits to a child to be brought up by a dedicated adult or adults and that the adult(s) will generally be a parent or parents, when and how do these benefits become a right?
 

redhead

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Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
6,900
What are the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child, exactly? Have they been specified already or will they be specified after the power to enforce them has been put in place?

One natural and imprescriptible right I would assume a child has is: the right to a father and mother.

There are plenty of sources which claim that children of single parents or same-sex couples are disadvantaged; i.e. their safety or welfare is prejudicially affected.

In theory therefore, these children could be removed to adoptive parents without any further legislation. Perhaps even at birth. Certainly there are a lot of prospective adoptive parents in Ireland who cannot at present obtain an Irish baby.

Is the State replacing the Church of days gone by? We know how badly that turned out.

Why would anyone in their right mind (and concerned for children) vote yes for this?
I may be wrong but doesn't the exact phraseology come from Thomas Paine and appear in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Isn't this referendum just to put that on a legal footing by amending the constitution? Nothing sinister involved.
 

lying eyes

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Apr 27, 2009
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I would not trust the State to care for a stray dog, never mind any human young or old.Their record in this area is disgraceful.
 

redhead

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Jun 11, 2007
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I would not trust the State to care for a stray dog, never mind any human young or old.Their record in this area is disgraceful.
Maybe but perhaps those who have been neglected or abused in the home would disagree.
 

LamportsEdge

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Jan 10, 2012
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'Natural and imprescriptable' is a form of vaticanese inserted in the Irish constitution and in the wording of this referendum by priestridden Irish politicians afraid of the church.

In a Republic and a democracy there should be no such wording. It is an admission of subjection to some kind of spiritual nonsense describing the fear of Irish legislators of the perceived borderland between what they think they are allowed to describe and around the word 'imprescriptable' is their surrender to the priest in Irish affairs.

It is cowardice. It is interference of one strand of spiritual belief in the wording of the laws of a pretend Republic and a failed description of a pluralist democracy.

In other words it is the Irish bishops and the knights of columbanus and whatever more recent jesus-club feels empowered to intervene in Irish law.

It is another failure writ small in the social history of the so-called Republic. The Yellow-Green Republic.
 

Mercurial

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'Natural and imprescriptable' is a form of vaticanese inserted in the Irish constitution and in the wording of this referendum by priestridden Irish politicians afraid of the church.

In a Republic and a democracy there should be no such wording. It is an admission of subjection to some kind of spiritual nonsense describing the fear of Irish legislators of the perceived borderland between what they think they are allowed to describe and around the word 'imprescriptable' is their surrender to the priest in Irish affairs.

It is cowardice. It is interference of one strand of spiritual belief in the wording of the laws of a pretend Republic and a failed description of a pluralist democracy.

In other words it is the Irish bishops and the knights of columbanus and whatever more recent jesus-club feels empowered to intervene in Irish law.

It is another failure writ small in the social history of the so-called Republic. The Yellow-Green Republic.
Nope, there's plenty of room for a secular account of natural rights.
 

LamportsEdge

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Jan 10, 2012
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21,894
Is there? Do we have a shortage of English and Irish speakers who can describe rights in Ireland?

I notice no shortage of barristers and lawyers. A referendum question or wording should never contain the word 'imprescriptable' as it is obscure and unclear as to what its meaning is intended to be.

There can only be two reasons for including such a word in the referendum wording (1) It is intended to be a future money maker for the courts in deciding eventually what it is supposed to mean or (2) it is an oblique and varticanese reference to some dogmatic notion above lawmaking and it is yet again a way of inserting jesuitry into the laws of what is laughably supposed to be a democracy and a Republic.

There are very few referendum or electoral commissions in other countries I suggest who would be content in not challenging such an assumptive and oblique reference in a referendum wording.

Suppose the referendum on Scottish independence had a wording in it which referred to the 'imprescriptable' status of the Crown.

Do you seriously think that would be unchallenged? Quite frankly it wouldn't be allowed in the referendum wording because it is obscure, unclear what it means, and would undercut the entire point of the referendum.

It is just some priestridden nonsense again being reiterated without explanation in Irish lawmaking.

Why hasn't that phrase been explained by the authors? Better still- why hasn't it been challenged by the Referendum Commission?
 
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
40,632
'Natural and imprescriptable' is a form of vaticanese inserted in the Irish constitution and in the wording of this referendum by priestridden Irish politicians afraid of the church.

In a Republic and a democracy there should be no such wording. It is an admission of subjection to some kind of spiritual nonsense describing the fear of Irish legislators of the perceived borderland between what they think they are allowed to describe and around the word 'imprescriptable' is their surrender to the priest in Irish affairs.

It is cowardice. It is interference of one strand of spiritual belief in the wording of the laws of a pretend Republic and a failed description of a pluralist democracy.

In other words it is the Irish bishops and the knights of columbanus and whatever more recent jesus-club feels empowered to intervene in Irish law.

It is another failure writ small in the social history of the so-called Republic. The Yellow-Green Republic.
I think tht you're jumping at shadows here.

There are explicit references in the Constitution which should certainly be removed, but this isn't one of them.
 

Dame_Enda

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Dec 14, 2011
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52,038
The absence of a definition of what this means is the main reason I am voting no. I've had it up the here with judges legislating from the bench. They are starting to resemble the pre-Revolutionary French parlement courts with their meddling in politics.
 
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