Nazism - Trump orders 260,000 Salvadoreans to leave the USA

O'Sullivan Bere

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I take your point, reality versus optics, But that is life and Trump, lunatic or not, is hitting a lot of like buttons.
He certainly is, just like President Andrew Johnson or Nixon with his 'Southern Strategy' and others have on the low brow race/ethnic/religion, etc, angles for national low points in its history.
 


O'Sullivan Bere

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Fleeing terrorists and being denied the right to homeschool are both reasons for asylum. The group that could be deported have a right to apply for asylum.
Trying to call them Nazis is pure stupid.
Fleeing terrorism is sufficient but home schooling complaints are insufficient IMO.

I agree this is not Nazism but it does show a very dark racist and predatory segment and aspect of the US through Trumpism. It's a cheap low brow stunt based on race politics and also for using them the past 20 years for work and taxes and then kicking them out to keep their contributions before they age into pensioner status.
 

Dimples 77

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Here's a news-report. Donald Trump takes away right to remain in US from 260,000 Salvadorans | The Independent - "More than half of all Salvadoran immigrants have lived in the US for 20 years or more, according to the Centre for Migration Studies. Ten per cent are married to a legal resident.".

I'm reminded of a time when a Jew told me how, when he was seven, all his family were deported from Germany.

Had that Jewish person (and their family) been in Germany on some sort of a Temporary Protection scheme, via which they were allowed to stay in Germany on a temporary basis until the situation changed?

I'd doubt it - that Jewish family was probably well-establised in Germany, probably citizens into the bargain. They weren't foreigners who had been taken into Germany on some temporary relief scheme due to a natural disaster.

With respect to these Salvadorans they are not US citizens. As it says in the article:
"They were granted Temporary Protected Status (TPS) after earthquakes rocked the Central American country in 2001."

Which part of the word "temporary" did they not understand?

Which part of the word "temporary" do you not understand?

The article also says:
"The Trump administration has already removed TPS protection from tens of thousands of Haitians and Nicaraguans."

This obviously isn't about just picking on Salvadorans - it's about properly assessing for once the continuted need to extend this status to people who were only supposed to be in the US on a temporary basis. I understand that previous administrations haven't bothered to properly assess the continuted need to extend this status to people, but that doesn't change the fact that the scheme was only meant to provide temporary refuge in the US.

It WOULD be Nazism if Trump announced a measure to deport all US citizens of Salvadoran ethnicity, or Pakistani ethnicity, etc. If he did that he would be picking on certain sets of US citizens on the basis of nothing more than ethnicity. But he's not threatening to deport US citizens of Salvadoran ethnicity, is he?
 

Jim Car

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Yes the man who's three top advisors are jewish including is own daughter who converted to become and orthodox jew is in fact a Nazi! Like you could not actually make this c**p up. If you want to call the man names why not use ones that don't make you look like an idiot?
 

Dimples 77

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No fan of Trump but to be fair about this - these people were always on a temporary permit and they have been given almost 2 years warning. They can stay till nearly the end of 2019. And during this period they can change their immigration status and become resident under a different program.

Calling this particular issue 'Nazism' is silly.

That's the crux of the issue here.

Which part of the word temporary don't people understand.
 

talkingshop

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Fleeing terrorism is sufficient but home schooling complaints are insufficient IMO.

I agree this is not Nazism but it does show a very dark racist and predatory segment and aspect of the US through Trumpism. It's a cheap low brow stunt based on race politics and also for using them the past 20 years for work and taxes and then kicking them out to keep their contributions before they age into pensioner status.
Oh come on, "using them"? I'm sure they used America too, and it seems to have suited them, as they didn't want to go back.

To be honest, I haven't huge sympathy - it was always temporary as I understand it, and subject to periodic renewal depending on conditions in their home country, and they knew that. Maybe I'm being harsh, but I don't have too much sympathy for the whining of the undocumented Irish either.
 

Dimples 77

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Have these 'provisional residency permits' expired? If so, well then they are illegal (which doesn't justify Trump's behaviour BTW).
But they haven't expired, and it has been announced that they have until a certain date to find an alternate way to stay in the US.

Thus currently they are not illegal.
 

Dimples 77

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The children born in the USA of these immigrants are not foreigners.
That's a good point and shows the lack of joined-up-thinking in the US.

It's obvious that if you allow people to have a temporary status in the US that some of them will have children while they are temporarily in the US, and the longer the temporary status lasts the larger the number of them that will have children will get.

If US politicians had any sense they'd have put in a rule that the children of people who have this temporary status don't get US citizenship. But of course they didn't do that so lots of the children now DO have US citizenship.

For all their claims, in many ways the US is a very dysfunctional society. Just look at the mess regarding marijuana laws. Wouldn't you think that the biggest superpower in the world would be able to decide if those laws should be at a state level or at a federal level? But no - now the same activity in some US states is legal at the state level, but illegal under federal law.
 

Dimples 77

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If their parents are illegals they should all get the boot. Splitting up families is never good.
Why shouldn't the children get to stay?

If they are US citizens why should they "get the boot"? They are not illegals, as you put it.

In the supposed land of the free shouldn't a citizen be free to stay if they want to, even if one/more of their relatives suddenly becomes an illegal?
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Oh come on, "using them"? I'm sure they used America too, and it seems to have suited them, as they didn't want to go back.

To be honest, I haven't huge sympathy - it was always temporary as I understand it, and subject to periodic renewal depending on conditions in their home country, and they knew that. Maybe I'm being harsh, but I don't have too much sympathy for the whining of the undocumented Irish either.
Absolutely it's used them. Labour exploitation is as old as the US. Legalised indentured servants and slaves were no accident. Nor were the anti-labour laws and deregulations of the Robber Baron era in the Industrial Revolution. However, as each group got free and/or strong enough and/or integrated enough with voting power, organising power, etc, a new way had to be found.

'Closed legal/open illegal' was and remains the current 'answer'. Undocumented immigrants can't vote, can't unionise, can't complain in court about their working rights under the law, can't collect on Social Security and Medicare despite paying into it, etc. It's 'take it or leave it' for them and given where they come from and their present situation.

Notice the government has still done jack sh!t for the bulk of them. Yes, it's kicking out criminals, but it always did that. It's doing little for kicking out merely undocumented people whilst opposing legalising them. Here, they're only using this gimmick to 'unlegalise' people they know have no real home to go back given time passage and entrenchment in the US including US citizen children and grandchildren.

Keeping voters angry whilst keeping undocumented people in that status pays spades in several directions from the ballot box to the cash register. That also includes budgeting and cuts on the platform.

For example, two-thirds of undocmented immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes and other state and local taxes. They are ineligible to collect any benefits themselves or even their tax refunds, Medicare, Social Security, etc. The government pockets all that.

Cui bono mo chara...whose benefiting. Just follow the money and the power plays.
 

DexterGreen22

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If was a Nazi he'd have them sent to Extermination Camps, not deported them.

In the 1930's/40's Jews couldn't wait to leave Europe, they were tripping over themselves to get out. Today people from all over the world are tripping over themselves to get into the US, England, Germany etc.

Surely if us Westerners were actually acting like Nazis they would be running the other way and not towards us?
 

Dimples 77

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So should the Americans not give any special permits to these people, as this scenario will always happen? Or should they give everyone permanent status on arrival to stop the pain for when they have to return home with their US born children?
Serious question.

That would have involved joined-up-thinking between 2001 and now, and nobody in US politics did the required thinking.

I suppose everyone assumed that a Trump-like character would never come along, and so the issue wouldn't ever need to be addressed.
 

talkingshop

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Absolutely it's used them. Labour exploitation is as old as the US. Legalised indentured servants and slaves were no accident. Nor were the anti-labour laws and deregulations of the Robber Baron era in the Industrial Revolution. However, as each group got free and/or strong enough and/or integrated enough with voting power, organising power, etc, a new way had to be found.

'Closed legal/open illegal' was and remains the current 'answer'. Undocumented immigrants can't vote, can't unionise, can't complain in court about their working rights under the law, can't collect on Social Security and Medicare despite paying into it, etc. It's 'take it or leave it' for them and given where they come from and their present situation.

Notice the government has still done jack sh!t for the bulk of them. Yes, it's kicking out criminals, but it always did that. It's doing little for kicking out merely undocumented people whilst opposing legalising them. Here, they're only using this gimmick to 'unlegalise' people they know have no real home to go back given time passage and entrenchment in the US including US citizen children and grandchildren.

Keeping voters angry whilst keeping undocumented people in that status pays spades in several directions from the ballot box to the cash register. That also includes budgeting and cuts on the platform.

For example, two-thirds of undocmented immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes and other state and local taxes. They are ineligible to collect any benefits themselves or even their tax refunds, Medicare, Social Security, etc. The government pockets all that.

Cui bono mo chara...whose benefiting. Just follow the money and the power plays.
I won't get into all that, but I will put this one point to you - it's a good thing that a country, any country, would temporarily take in people who are displaced by an earthquake or a natural disaster in another country. But if taking in people temporarily is going to effectively mean they get to stay forever, regardless of conditions in their home, countries might be less inclined to do that, which isn't a good thing. In principle I don't see anything wrong with temporary programmes where people go back.
 

Dimples 77

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If was a Nazi he'd have them sent to Extermination Camps, not deported them.

In the 1930's/40's Jews couldn't wait to leave Europe, they were tripping over themselves to get out. Today people from all over the world are tripping over themselves to get into the US, England, Germany etc.

Surely if us Westerners were actually acting like Nazis they would be running the other way and not towards us?


Like most things in life, the Nazis didn't start out with the extermination camps. As they called it themselves killing the Jews was the FINAL solution, and not the prior attempts at finding a solution.

As I'm sure you know things started off with persecution in order to make things hard for Jews in Germany. This resulted in many Jews "self-deporting" - by 1939 about 250,000 of the 437,000 German Jews had emigrated.

The extermination policies, including camps, didn't get going until the Nazis started going after Soviet-held territory.

If Trump is a Nazi maybe the pattern will be repeated. We'll know what's coming when he goes looking for some Lebensraum - territory for the US to control and to use for various purposes, maybe including exterminating those peoples he wants rid of.
 

edg

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Fleeing terrorism is sufficient but home schooling complaints are insufficient IMO.

I agree this is not Nazism but it does show a very dark racist and predatory segment and aspect of the US through Trumpism. It's a cheap low brow stunt based on race politics and also for using them the past 20 years for work and taxes and then kicking them out to keep their contributions before they age into pensioner status.
All these people can apply for asylum though. If they are fleeing for their life they can be granted it. If they are fleeing for other reasons such as being denied the right to teach your own children then so be it.
 

ticketyboo

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The children born in the USA of these immigrants are not foreigners.
I dont think you and I agree on domestic politics, but I do admire your patience in your debate with all the lunatic mini Trumps here....it's beyond my comprehension that anyone could argue that demon isn't racist....from his treatment of white racists versus those who opposed them in Charlottsville, I think...was it..the confederate statue stuff....to the calls for Iranians to be allowed freedom of expression versus the footballers who did that "take a knee" thing.....
The casual demonization of whole countries from Mexico to Japan to China to Pakistan....this was pretty much foretold in the "Newsroom" series of Aaron Sorkin.....the sick diversion of inventing millions of illegal voters (all of them Hilary's, of course.....and did one Republican ask themselves how could he possibly come to such a conclusion)....when the real problem is the voter suppression of voters who very often carry the surnames of ex Presidents, like Johnson, Washington and such like.....as Sorkin's dialogue said ...."is it any wonder Republicans have a certain type of person to vote for them.....
Those here who defend this latest stunt aren't willfully stupid....I think they're just closet racists themselves, and they're happy to spread the subtleties of this policy...
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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. . . For all their claims, in many ways the US is a very dysfunctional society. Just look at the mess regarding marijuana laws. Wouldn't you think that the biggest superpower in the world would be able to decide if those laws should be at a state level or at a federal level? But no - now the same activity in some US states is legal at the state level, but illegal under federal law.
With dysfunctions there are benefits too for the exploiters, and that's why Americans complain about the drug, tax and immigration laws being chaotic, but it's quite intentional given the money and benefits accrued from it to certain empowered interests.

Take this major Trump supporter, Maine Governor Paul LePage:

"Now the traffickers ... These are guys with the name D-Money, Smoothie, Shifty, these types of guys. They come from Connecticut and New York, they come up here, they sell their heroin, and they go back home,” LePage said. “Incidentally, half the time they impregnate a young, white girl before they leave, which is a real sad thing because then we have another issue that we’ve got to deal with down the road. We’re going to make them very severe penalties.”
Paul LePage Makes Racist Claim About Drug Dealers Named D-Money Getting White Girls Pregnant | HuffPost

Note the attitude...it's the brown people corrupting the beautiful local white people with their pollutants and, worse, polluting their whiteness. It's not the 'nice white folk' creating the marketplace with loads of cash that wreck their nations and communities, which is far more the truth of it.

If anything, Latin Americans like Salvadorans are rightfully p!ssed that their nations are turned into corrupted governments with dangerous drug traffickers thanks to First World drug demands in the US, Canada, Europe and elsewhere. That in turn drives undocumented immigration from these areas for further exploitation as explained.

Yet, look at the privileged hypocrisy when the UK and ROI make a special case for 'damsels in distress' like Tyrone's Michaella McCollum Connolly that trafficked drugs from Peru so she could live a party lifestyle on drug money. IMO, she should have done the same amount of prison time in Peru under Peruvian conditions like the locals drug dealers do.

Add in American, Canadian, European and other economic exploitation in such places that corrupt their governments, and a special mention for the US having armed the crap out of people there causing civil wars that have created instability, corruption and even the gangs themselves (MS-13 and others are American formed gangs and traffic in drugs, sex slaves, etc, in North America and Europe), it's mostly the US and others in the First World that have been the source of their misery.
 

JOFATS

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The majority of Mara Salvatrucha 13 (MS13) members are from El Salvador. Great bunch of lads,a huge asset to any country!
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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All these people can apply for asylum though. If they are fleeing for their life they can be granted it. If they are fleeing for other reasons such as being denied the right to teach your own children then so be it.
From such areas, they usually don't get granted regardless of the merits because they don't want lots of them legally in the US.
 


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