New EU Treaty Vote – Would you ever believe them again?

Tea Party Patriot

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I am just interested in the mood among posters here to see what your reaction would be if another EU Treaty was put before the electorate. It is quite possible that a Lisbon 3 may emerge as the current crisis deepens and that we may have yet another referendum.

Given that the slogans of the mainstream political parties the last time round were proven to be such lies as “Yes For Jobs” and “Yes For Prosperity” could you ever believe them where Europe is concerned again?
 


Garland Names the Skies

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It might better help posters to answer your question if you elaborated as to what about the Lisbon Treaty or it's hypothetical successor had anything to do with our current meltdown. Empty campaign slogans don't do not constitute proof of anything i'm afraid
 

Tea Party Patriot

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It might better help posters to answer your question if you elaborated as to what about the Lisbon Treaty or it's hypothetical successor had anything to do with our current meltdown. Empty campaign slogans don't do not constitute proof of anything i'm afraid
The very fact that FF are now selling our sovereignty down the drain so that the ECB can make a vain attempt to fill an immense black hole in the fractional reserve system it promoted and save an unsalvageable currency should be sufficient proof if any were needed that the EU should have been left as a free trade agreement and taken no further.
 

DeputyEdo

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I didn't believe them the last time, so I certainly wouldn't believe them next time.
But then again, I've always said "Whatever Fianna Fail wants, this country doesn't need", so wait to see how FF would vote...then do the opposite
 

Garland Names the Skies

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The very fact that FF are now selling our sovereignty down the drain so that the ECB can make a vain attempt to fill an immense black hole in the fractional reserve system it promoted and save an unsalvageable currency should be sufficient proof if any were needed that the EU should have been left as a free trade agreement and taken no further.
Which has what to do with the Lisbon Treaty. that would be EMU rather than Lisbon surely
 

vanla sighs

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Voted and campaigned against Lisbon 2, would do the very same for Lisbon 3 - if and when it comes.
 

Pat Mc Larnon

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The government simply keeps re-running it until they get their way. People give up too easily and either don't bother to vote or change sides just to make it go away.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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Which has what to do with the Lisbon Treaty. that would be EMU rather than Lisbon surely
EMU is a result of the Amsterdam treaty which I also voted against. My point is that every erosion of our own national power that we have handed over to Europe is what has led us to this impasse today.

Lisbon is a further erosion and any Lisbon 3 treaty will be yet more power transferred from Ireland to the EU. As for your first point, on the slogans, well it was our mainstream parties that told the Irish people that if they voted for Lisbon it would bring Jobs and Prosperity, neither has resulted from this, so I think my OP has a fair point to make, in that our mainstream parties lied to us about Lisbon.
 

Garland Names the Skies

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Voted and campaigned against Lisbon 2, would do the very same for Lisbon 3 - if and when it comes.
Try not campaining along side a bunch of know nothings. It helps with the whole credibiity thing. For starters EU treaties are named after the ities they're signed in not as sequels. And wait until there is a treaty to criticise before you start criticising it
 

Garland Names the Skies

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EMU is a result of the Amsterdam treaty which I also voted against. My point is that every erosion of our own national power that we have handed over to Europe is what has led us to this impasse today.

Lisbon is a further erosion and any Lisbon 3 treaty will be yet more power transferred from Ireland to the EU. As for your first point, on the slogans, well it was our mainstream parties that told the Irish people that if they voted for Lisbon it would bring Jobs and Prosperity, neither has resulted from this, so I think my OP has a fair point to make, in that our mainstream parties lied to us about Lisbon.
You do realise that you are simultaneously trying to argue against the Government that got us here while also arguing that power should be transferred into their hands?
 

Fergalino

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EMU is a result of the Amsterdam treaty which I also voted against. My point is that every erosion of our own national power that we have handed over to Europe is what has led us to this impasse today.

Lisbon is a further erosion and any Lisbon 3 treaty will be yet more power transferred from Ireland to the EU. As for your first point, on the slogans, well it was our mainstream parties that told the Irish people that if they voted for Lisbon it would bring Jobs and Prosperity, neither has resulted from this, so I think my OP has a fair point to make, in that our mainstream parties lied to us about Lisbon.
The impasse we are in today is due to our own home grown incompetence and our own home grown greed. Our bubble was blown up and bursting long before Lisbon. If the EU is to be crticised its for leaving us to our own devices and not stepping in to tell us that we were acting the maggot. Rather, they sttod passively by whilst McCreevy boasted to them about how an economy should be run.

(and btw, EMU (European Monetary Union) dates from Maastricht Treaty of 1992 and not the Amsterdam Treaty - did you even read Amsterdam before your knee jerk no vote to it ...)
 

Tea Party Patriot

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You do realise that you are simultaneously trying to argue against the Government that got us here while also arguing that power should be transferred into their hands?
I am saying that power should be in the hands of the Irish people. While the reckless socialist spending by FF has a major part to play in our current crisis, the reckless expansion of the money supply by the ECB is equally responsible if not more so.

FF we can replace at the next election, we can't rid ourselves of the EU as easily.
 

DeputyEdo

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Try not campaining along side a bunch of know nothings. It helps with the whole credibiity thing. For starters EU treaties are named after the ities they're signed in not as sequels. And wait until there is a treaty to criticise before you start criticising it
Would that be the "know nothings" who said Lisbon wont lead to more jobs and a better future...because boy were they wrong!!

Oh hang on a minute...no, actually..they were right. I guess the know nothings knew something after all.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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The impasse we are in today is due to our own home grown incompetence and our own home grown greed. Our bubble was blown up and bursting long before Lisbon. If the EU is to be crticised its for leaving us to our own devices and not stepping in to tell us that we were acting the maggot. Rather, they sttod passively by whilst McCreevy boasted to them about how an economy should be run.

(and btw, EMU (European Monetary Union) dates from Maastricht Treaty of 1992 and not the Amsterdam Treaty - did you even read Amsterdam before your knee jerk no vote to it ...)
You really need to do some research on how the ECB expanded the money supply that enabled our bubble economy in the first instance, they are equally responsible along with FF.
 

Fergalino

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You really need to do some research on how the ECB expanded the money supply that enabled our bubble economy in the first instance, they are equally responsible along with FF.
If we had imposed capital gains tax, imposed property taxes and used to money taken out of the economy in this way we would have 1) pr1ckked the propery bubble at source 2) made provision for future retirees 3) allowed more money for investment in infrastructure, education and health. But we didn't . We chose to make ourselves "rich". We chose the Galway tent culture. We chose. Face it.
 

Garland Names the Skies

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Would that be the "know nothings" who said Lisbon wont lead to more jobs and a better future...because boy were they wrong!!

Oh hang on a minute...no, actually..they were right. I guess the know nothings knew something after all.
Really? I don't remember any one of them predicting the global financial collapse or offering any original insights into the local property boom. I challenge you to produce evidence that they knew anything at all or that any of it had anything to do with the Lisbon treaty
 

Tea Party Patriot

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If we had imposed capital gains tax, imposed property taxes and used to money taken out of the economy in this way we would have 1) pr1ckked the propery bubble at source 2) made provision for future retirees 3) allowed more money for investment in infrastructure, education and health. But we didn't . We chose to make ourselves "rich". We chose the Galway tent culture. We chose. Face it.
Imposing higher taxes on private capital is not a means to grow an economy, and should not be used as an effective way of cooling one. Control of interest rates and money supply is the only effective way of doing this, unless of course you have a fully gold backed currency in which case the problem would not arise.

The simple fact of the matter is that Ireland broke with sterling in 1979 because we could not handle interest rates that were out of balance with our economy.

The ECB recklessly expanded the money supply across the continent and we are only seeing the begining of the fruits of that decision here in Ireland. Spain and Portugal will be next and eventully this will spread to the core of the Eurozone.
 


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