New Pro-Israel organisation .....


Clanrickard

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Called Alumni For Campus Freedom Ireland. They seem to be set up to counter the anti-Semitic BDS the so called Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Movement which has been allowed to grow cancer like on Irish Campuses. This is very welcome and I urge those of us who support a realistic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to like them on Facebook and help them out.
 

PAGE61

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How anyone and be pro murder and support a nation hell bent on obliteration of its neighbors is beyond me
 

Golah veNekhar

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Called Alumni For Campus Freedom Ireland. They seem to be set up to counter the anti-Semitic BDS the so called Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Movement which has been allowed to grow cancer like on Irish Campuses. This is very welcome and I urge those of us who support a realistic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to like them on Facebook and help them out.
BDS is not antisemitic. In fact that reason that they are not nearly as effective as they should be is that they are terrified of appearing in the slightest antisemitic which when you think about it is actually deeply antisemitic because it involves treating people because they come from a Jewish background differently to how they would treat other people. The only way there is going to be a real solution that works well for the majority of both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Israel Palestine is the dismantling of the ideology of the Jewish state and this will have to involve a critique of the religion of Judaism and the cultures it has moulded but to begin on that would immediately open you up to accusations of antisemitism. BDS though it is currently the only hope that we have of limiting the brutality and craziness seemingly ever increasing at the moment in Israel/Palestine will not go there which a deep fundamental flaw.
 

Clanrickard

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BDS is not antisemitic. In fact that reason that they are not nearly as effective as they should be is that they are terrified of appearing in the slightest antisemitic which when you think about it is actually deeply antisemitic because it involves treating people because they come from a Jewish background differently to how they would treat other people. The only way there is going to be a real solution that works well for the majority of both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Israel Palestine is the dismantling of the ideology of the Jewish state and this will have to involve a critique of the religion of Judaism and the cultures it has moulded but to begin on that would immediately open you up to accusations of antisemitism. BDS though it is currently the only hope that we have of limiting the brutality and craziness seemingly ever increasing at the moment in Israel/Palestine will not go there which a deep fundamental flaw.
Ratio BDS is anti-Semitic though obviously not to an anti-Semite like yourself. Their slogan which is often repeated is "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free". Implying the destruction of the world's only homeland for the Jewish people.
 

Eventualities

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Called Alumni For Campus Freedom Ireland. They seem to be set up to counter the anti-Semitic BDS the so called Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Movement which has been allowed to grow cancer like on Irish Campuses. This is very welcome and I urge those of us who support a realistic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to like them on Facebook and help them out.
BDS isn't anti-Semitic and supporters of occupation literally cannot claim to support freedom of any kind.
 

PAGE61

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Ratio BDS is anti-Semitic though obviously not to an anti-Semite like yourself. Their slogan which is often repeated is "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free". Implying the destruction of the world's only homeland for the Jewish people.
No they are Not anti semitic ..

You are just trying to portray them in a bad light by associating it to the holocaust..how trite
 

former wesleyan

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As somebody wrote recently, in Israel anti-semitism tunnels under your house.
 

Clanrickard

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BDS isn't anti-Semitic and supporters of occupation literally cannot claim to support freedom of any kind.
No they are Not anti semitic ..

You are just trying to portray them in a bad light by associating it to the holocaust..how trite
Wanting to wipe Jews out is very definitely anti-Semitic.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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BDS is not antisemitic. In fact that reason that they are not nearly as effective as they should be is that they are terrified of appearing in the slightest antisemitic which when you think about it is actually deeply antisemitic because it involves treating people because they come from a Jewish background differently to how they would treat other people. The only way there is going to be a real solution that works well for the majority of both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Israel Palestine is the dismantling of the ideology of the Jewish state and this will have to involve a critique of the religion of Judaism and the cultures it has moulded but to begin on that would immediately open you up to accusations of antisemitism. BDS though it is currently the only hope that we have of limiting the brutality and craziness seemingly ever increasing at the moment in Israel/Palestine will not go there which a deep fundamental flaw.
Apart from the highly-indicative point-of-view, the unpunctuated 50-odd word, stream-of-consciousness sentences are a dead give-away.

Give it over, love. Crawl out from under that stone: Exile and Alienation, that seminal work by Yehezkel Kaufmann, in any language, you are not.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Ratio BDS is anti-Semitic though obviously not to an anti-Semite like yourself. Their slogan which is often repeated is "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free". Implying the destruction of the world's only homeland for the Jewish people.
How is the notion of one democratic state in Israel/Palestine antisemitic?

Stating baldly however that Israel/Palestine is the world's only homeland for the Jewish people is though classic raw antisemitism because it is saying that a Jew who's family have been living in let us say Russia or France for centuries is not in his or her apartment in Omsk or Toulouse living in their homeland by the fact that they are Jewish.
 

roc_

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That's not what this is about, though, and it's disingenuous to say so.
What's it about, then?

Is it about opposing national self-determination for Jews, while not opposing it for any other peoples on earth?

Is it about the steady stream of false claims against Israel, such as claims of genocide, or an "apartheid" like there was in SA, while at the same time encouraging a Palestinian culture where children are taught to hate the “Yehudis”?

Is it about the shrill, vindictive claims that Jews are colonisers and occupiers on land where Jews have lived and have had to fight for survival for 3000 years?

Is it about the support and encouragement of the destructive, duplicitous, Palestinian refugee system whereby it is planned to bring all Palestinian so-called refugees in to erase the Jewish majority and transform Israel into an Arab state?

Is it about calling Israel by terms such as the “Zionist Entity” in an attempt to erase 3000 years of history and replace it with a new conveniently invented Arab Palestine?

Is it about the double standards consistently applied to Israel?

Is it about rewriting history in order to justify hatred and demonisation of the Jewish state?

Is it about aiming to shun a whole nation and strip it of its existence?

Without a doubt, on this forum at least, most so called "anti-Israel" contributors typically shall we say "enhance" their anti-Israel political stance by one or more or all of the above.

So what's it about then?

I have to say it seems to me like attacking Israel has become a de facto substitute for attacking Jews in today's post-Holocaust paradigm.

I personally struggle to explain the viciousness and one-sided views I read on here as anything other than a new form of anti-semitism.

Maybe that's just me. At least, in Ireland, it seems like there must be something wrong with me, to see things so.
 

roc_

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How is the notion of one democratic state in Israel/Palestine antisemitic?

Stating baldly however that Israel/Palestine is the world's only homeland for the Jewish people is though classic raw antisemitism because it is saying that a Jew who's family have been living in let us say Russia or France for centuries is not in his or her apartment in Omsk or Toulouse living in their homeland by the fact that they are Jewish.
Let's take the founder of BDS talking about this "one democratic state":


“(The one state solution means) a unitary state, where, by definition, Jews will be a minority.”​

“I am completely and categorically against binationalism because it assumes that there are two nations with equal moral claims to the land.”​

“[Israel] was Palestine, and there is no reason why it should not be renamed Palestine.”​

“[Palestinians have a right to] resistance by any means, including armed resistance. [Jews] aren’t indigenous just because you say you are….[Jews] are not a people…the UN’s principle of the right to self-determination applies only to colonized people who want to acquire their rights. ”​

“Going back to the two-state solution, besides having passed its expiry date, it was never a moral solution to start with.We are witnessing the rapid demise of Zionism, and nothing can be done to save it, for Zionism is intent on killing itself. I, for one, support euthanasia.“​

“Good riddance! The two-state solution for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is finally dead. But someone has to issue an official death certificate before the rotting corpse is given a proper burial and we can all move on and explore the more just, moral and therefore enduring alternative for peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs in Mandate Palestine: the one-state solution.”​

“The ‘two state solution,’…as dictated by Israel, omits basic Palestinian rights…[and] would be yet another act of British complicity in bestowing legitimacy on Israel’s unjust order.”​

“A Jewish state in Palestine in any shape or form cannot but contravene the basic rights of the indigenous Palestinian population and perpetuate a system of racial discrimination that ought to be opposed categorically….Definitely, most definitely we oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine. No Palestinian, rational Palestinian, not a sell-out Palestinian, will ever accept a Jewish state in Palestine.”​

“You cannot reconcile the right of return for refugees with a two state solution….a return for refugees would end Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. A two-state solution was never moral and it’s no longer working.”​

“[Jews] did not suffer in Arab countries. There were no pogroms. There was no persecution.”​

“I clearly do not buy into the two-state solution.”​​

(Barghouti, founder of BDS)​


You don't see the problem, no?


EDIT - I'll spell it out. - In the West, when we are at our best, democracy is all about protecting minority rights.

However, in this case, BDS in hand with the Arab league, the OIC, and all their terrorist proxies, etc, see the kind of "democracy" they want in Palestine as about consolidating majority rights and getting justice. They see it as a weapon they can wield against a minority.

Democracy was never conceived as a vehicle to obtaining "justice". It is a heinous abuse of it in fact.
 

Clanrickard

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How is the notion of one democratic state in Israel/Palestine antisemitic?

Stating baldly however that Israel/Palestine is the world's only homeland for the Jewish people is though classic raw antisemitism because it is saying that a Jew who's family have been living in let us say Russia or France for centuries is not in his or her apartment in Omsk or Toulouse living in their homeland by the fact that they are Jewish.
Look Ratio at the post below. It sums things up to a tee.

Let's take the founder of BDS talking about this "one democratic state":


“(The one state solution means) a unitary state, where, by definition, Jews will be a minority.”​

“I am completely and categorically against binationalism because it assumes that there are two nations with equal moral claims to the land.”​

“[Israel] was Palestine, and there is no reason why it should not be renamed Palestine.”​

“[Palestinians have a right to] resistance by any means, including armed resistance. [Jews] aren’t indigenous just because you say you are….[Jews] are not a people…the UN’s principle of the right to self-determination applies only to colonized people who want to acquire their rights. ”​

“Going back to the two-state solution, besides having passed its expiry date, it was never a moral solution to start with.We are witnessing the rapid demise of Zionism, and nothing can be done to save it, for Zionism is intent on killing itself. I, for one, support euthanasia.“​

“Good riddance! The two-state solution for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is finally dead. But someone has to issue an official death certificate before the rotting corpse is given a proper burial and we can all move on and explore the more just, moral and therefore enduring alternative for peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs in Mandate Palestine: the one-state solution.”​

“The ‘two state solution,’…as dictated by Israel, omits basic Palestinian rights…[and] would be yet another act of British complicity in bestowing legitimacy on Israel’s unjust order.”​

“A Jewish state in Palestine in any shape or form cannot but contravene the basic rights of the indigenous Palestinian population and perpetuate a system of racial discrimination that ought to be opposed categorically….Definitely, most definitely we oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine. No Palestinian, rational Palestinian, not a sell-out Palestinian, will ever accept a Jewish state in Palestine.”​

“You cannot reconcile the right of return for refugees with a two state solution….a return for refugees would end Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. A two-state solution was never moral and it’s no longer working.”​

“[Jews] did not suffer in Arab countries. There were no pogroms. There was no persecution.”​

“I clearly do not buy into the two-state solution.”​​

(Barghouti, founder of BDS)​


You don't see the problem, no?


EDIT - I'll spell it out. - In the West, when we are at our best, democracy is all about protecting minority rights.

However, in this case, BDS in hand with the Arab league, the OIC, and all their terrorist proxies, etc, see the kind of "democracy" they want in Palestine as about consolidating majority rights and getting justice. They see it as a weapon they can wield against a minority.

Democracy was never conceived as a vehicle to obtaining "justice". It is a heinous abuse of it in fact.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Give it over, love. Crawl out from under that stone: Exile and Alienation, that seminal work by Yehezkel Kaufmann, in any language, you are not.
Golah veNekhar, while as he see it as indeed being a work of genius, was at time very badly received and even see seen as crazy by people who otherwise admired him (though it is undergoing something of a revival among Jewish "Post-Zionists" in Israel/Palestine). The problem with it is that it is a work constructed upon of an incorrect belief that Jews were exiled from Eretz Israel which is of course never happened unless you are going to count the Samaritans as Jews (they were exiled twice during the Byzantine period but got back as soon as they could), and because of this everything else that he has to say in it with indeed ingenious is fundamentally flawed. His seminal work is Golah veNekhar but rather Toledot Ha'emunah Hayisraelit.

Reading Golah veNekhar though forced me to the conclusion that the best solution to the Jewish Question is to persuade a majority of adopt Islam. The majority of Palestinians anyway come from Jews, actual Hebrew Jews (if you are looking to discover the descendants of the Palestinians, especially the Palestinian Muslims, and Iraqi Jews are the places to look and most definitely not Ashkenaz) anyway.

Are you Jewish yourself Malcolm?
 

Golah veNekhar

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Is it about the support and encouragement of the destructive, duplicitous, Palestinian refugee system whereby it is planned to bring all Palestinian so-called refugees in to erase the Jewish majority and transform Israel into an Arab state?

Is it about calling Israel by terms such as the “Zionist Entity” in an attempt to erase 3000 years of history and replace it with a new conveniently invented Arab Palestine?
.
As ever with your posts I find it hard to know where to begin as you throw out some much with most of it heavily pregnant with the needs for explication and investigation. I suppose to that I can often be equally guilty of this. Historically in Palestine the Arabs were Bedouin while the Palestinians called themselves not Palestinians but the "people of the soil"/"the people who till the soil" basically by a phrase that captures the term of Am ha'aretz in it's Talmudic as opposed to Biblical context though without negative connotations.

Now the Talmud Yerushalmi records an obviously intensely bitter class struggle between the "Wise" and the Am ha'aretz in and around the third century AD, when we get to the Talmud Bavli the peasant class has basically disappeared from within Judaism and Am ha'aretz has become a term of abuse. Remember what Josephus tells us about his people, he states that hate traveling outside of their homeland and that they in general scorn anyone not involved in primary production. How than do we find all these Jewish communities outside of Palestine? The simple fact of the matter was that Judaism used to be a Religion very much given to proselytizing but also one that would convert people on threat of violence when it could. It was a combination of both having to deal with a Christian Empire and the class struggle I referred to which gradually transformed Judaism from what it was it the time of Josephus to it was to become.

The Palestinians have very many customs that originate from Judaism. It isn't just me by the way who says that the Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews, someone on the Israeli Right has written an incredibly interesting on this subject entitled "Brother shall not raise sword against brother" in which he not only proves this but shows that a lot of early Zionists realized this to. The solution he draws from this though is crazy which is getting rid of Palestinian leaderships which he sees as evil in downright hysterical terms and converting the Palestinian masses to Judaism. The problem with trying to convert the Palestinian masses to Judaism is Judaism usually does not bring anywhere near the same sense of joy and courage that not just Christianity but also Islam do.

You should read his book, it is really fascinating.

https://www.amazon.com/Brother-Shall-Lift-Sword-against/dp/1419689002
 

lastofthebohemians

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There is a substanial minority in Israel, who are Liberal and want a just settlement and peace with all their neighbours.
 

roc_

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Golah veNekhar

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There is a substanial minority in Israel, who are Liberal and want a just settlement and peace with all their neighbours.
Yes. They are called the "Israeli Arabs" however the number of Jews who do is minuscule and they are increasingly leaving the country. What you say would have been true up to a point among Jews during the 1980s and 1990s but things have changed massively since than. Also the term Liberal is vague at the best of times but in this context you really have to define what you mean by it. Would Rabbi Menachem Froman in his later years, one of the most fascinating characters of the conflict and an actual founding member of Gush Emunim, count as Liberal? He certainly became very much so in regards to the Palestinians however he believed that the ideal would be a joint Jewish and Muslim Theocracy which is one of the reasons that he got on so much more better with Hamas as opposed to Fatah.

I have talked to Jewish members of Balad, the Palestinian political party in Israel "proper" who the Avigdor Liebermans and Ayelet Shakeds love to hate, who though their party's Palestinian leadership fully supports the whole gay rights thing actually sincerely blamed all homosexuality among Jews in Israel on Zionism (a lot of the Haredi do this as well) and left one with the impression that they would happily ethnically cleanse Israel/Palestine of the bulk of Ashkenaz and Yiddish Jewry. Yet most Jews in Israel would consider them to be people who are Liberal to the point of suicidal self-hatred.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Look Ratio at the post below. It sums things up to a tee.
That post was meant for the frier Goyim on this forum rather than myself. Mr or Ms Simurgh is well aware that I am not some narish Kopf. Anyway the only thing quoted that I would take issue with is this-“[Jews] did not suffer in Arab countries. There were no pogroms. There was no persecution.”​ Now anti-Jewish in the Muslim world compared to that of Christian Europe was virtually non-existent however saying that and saying that there were never any pogroms is a whole different thing. Pogroms while extremely rare did happen occasionally. Saying also that there was no persecution is also untrue, while again a rarity it did at times happen. For instance there was a period in Muslim Spain of all places where the Muslim rulers did lean heavily on the Jews however this period also saw the blossoming of Karaism among Jews there and so what did the Rabbis do when they regained their previous power and influence? The murdered quite a numerous bunch of Karaites. So it could be argued that in times of persecution your average Jew in the Islamic world was actually freer than he was at other times.
 
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