New property tax proposed

spalpeen

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New property tax proposed
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0718/housing.html

"A proposal to replace stamp duty with a new property tax has been put forward by the National Economic and Social Council.
It says the idea should be considered by the Commission on Taxation.
The NESC also says Ireland has an obligation to focus spending on infrastructure roads and training despite tight public finances.."


Can't see this before the Locals... Thats all the incumbent FF Councillors want to have to explain..
property Tax in Ireland... That Dog won't Hunt ;)
God Help the Party that introduce it regardless of any merits the idea may have
 


riven

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Transferring our tax to property is stupid. If they want to bring this in the need to say first Abolish Stamp Duty.

anyway what is the justification for a property tax? Roadtax I can understand as the government maintains it. They do not maintain private property.
 

expat girl

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riven said:
Transferring our tax to property is stupid. If they want to bring this in the need to say first Abolish Stamp Duty.

anyway what is the justification for a property tax? Roadtax I can understand as the government maintains it. They do not maintain private property.
Doing anything like this in the middle of a slump is asinine stupidity. Not to mention electoral suicide... FF aint that thick.

If they were to wait 5 years until ...maybe... there are shoots of recovery, and also relate the tax not only to its value, but also to how much further it needs to be insulated etc for energy efficiency, it might be a positive thing. In the absence of control over our own interest rates, we should use stamp/property taxes as levers..... push 'em up in a boom and down in a slump, to level the market.
 

Oppenheimer

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How would this be practically implemented? For a long time now people have been shouting about getting rid of Stamp Duty. Will it be the case that those who have already paid Stamp Duty will have an exemption up to the amount they paid or some such consideration? Otherwise this does whiff of a double taxation on many.
 

Oppenheimer

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expat girl said:
If they were to wait 5 years until ...maybe... there are shoots of recovery, and also relate the tax not only to its value, but also to how much further it needs to be insulated etc for energy efficiency, it might be a positive thing. In the absence of control over our own interest rates, we should use stamp/property taxes as levers..... push 'em up in a boom and down in a slump, to level the market.
Problem is though, as I understand it, if they wait and the recovery starts then their revenue shoots up and there will be no incentive to do this.
 

just_society

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It's a bit late now.

But a property tax would have discouraged a huge number of amateur, buy to let, interest only landlords. Most of these have no interest in owning a rental property, the only interest they had was in selling it in a few years at what they hoped to be a large profit. That dream is over (unless they wait a generation or more!).

Result: empty, badly serviced, run down properties, with first time buyers priced out of the market, due to the excess demand from the BTL crowd. I still think the tax is a good idea, it might end the stalemate in prices that have characterized the housing market for the last two years, and force those to sell who are trying to sit it out right now. I would strongly support a tax on second homes, ie on the amateur landlords.

My two cents....
 

wysiwyg

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It's just a new name for rates to be honest

They say it's replacing Stamp Duty, so does this mean it will only apply to newly built, newly bought property, or will it encompass all property ?

All the opposition parties have a very simple message prior to next years locals..

FF ARE BRINGING BACK DOMESTIC RATES... THEY CAN CALL IT WHAT THEY LIKE .. BUT THEY ARE BRINGING BACK DOMESTIC RATES
 

flyer

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So someone who recently traded up and handed over 20 or 30 thousand in stamp duty for an overvalued house will now find themselves having to pay tax again? And how will they calculate it? A percentage of the property value? In which case people in 1 bed apartments in Dublin City will be paying the same or more than someone in a 3 bed semi in Limerick. Or perhaps they will do it on the size of the house in which case many elderly people who are in large old houses will find themselves forced to sell their homes to get the money to pay overdue tax and heating bills.

This NESC (whoever they are) must be on drugs. Any government who brings in a property tax (however it is run) will be able to look out the gates of government building as the mob come for them.
 

GusherING

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Yeah it would level out the property market, and encourage people to live in homes appropriate to their family size. In other words a property tax for a 7 bedroom house with one person living in it would be more expensive than a 1 bedroom house in property tax. It would mean freeing up the 7 room house for a large family cramped into a tiny flat etc. But the real advantage is to stop huge land speculation as occurred in the last few years. Pity this wasn't being talked about a few years ago when it was most needed.
 

Leftfemme22

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I paid my property tax when I bought my house. It was a significant lump sum. End of story.
 

Cael

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A property tax has been recommended many times before, but the landlord class, who have bought Fianna Fail and use it as a mere instrument of their personal power, have always blocked this rather meek and sober proposal. Its the basic rule of the Irish economy that the poor must pay the rich - not the other way around. Of course, family homes should be exempt, as should small family farms, but second houses/apartments and all other property should be subject to this tax. Zoned building land, which is idle for more than 18 months, should be hammered.
 

Oppenheimer

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GusherING said:
Yeah it would level out the property market, and encourage people to live in homes appropriate to their family size. In other words a property tax for a 7 bedroom house with one person living in it would be more expensive than a 1 bedroom house in property tax. It would mean freeing up the 7 room house for a large family cramped into a tiny flat etc. But the real advantage is to stop huge land speculation as occurred in the last few years. Pity this wasn't being talked about a few years ago when it was most needed.
Good points - and the many threads of getting rid of the Euro tend to miss this, i.e., the Govt. did have mechanisms by which they could have controlled the overheating in the economy. But what Govt. is going to turn away from getting, what is it, approx. 22-23% off every house transaction that included Stamp Duty in the past few years?
 

hiker

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It would appear that even the possability of a discussion about the probability of a possable restructuring etc etc etc etc, will put the final nail in the coffin of the property industry in Ireland.

Who in their right mind would even consider buying a house and paying €20K upwards in Stamp Duty if there was even the remotest possability that Stamp Duty would be abolished within the next year or two?

I would say builders, estate agents, developers and all their staff woke up to the news this morning and just buried their heads under the pillows.

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for them all.
 

Akrasia

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myk said:
Who are the National Economic and Social Council?
They are an advisory group who report directly to the office of an taoiseach. They comprise of the same groups who make up the social partners. They are a pretty good indicator of where public policy is heading as they are usually listened to on most issues.
 

Leftfemme22

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hiker said:
It would appear that even the possability of a discussion about the probability of a possable restructuring etc etc etc etc, will put the final nail in the coffin of the property industry in Ireland.

Who in their right mind would even consider buying a house and paying €20K upwards in Stamp Duty if there was even the remotest possability that Stamp Duty would be abolished within the next year or two?

I would say builders, estate agents, developers and all their staff woke up to the news this morning and just buried their heads under the pillows.

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for them all.
No. Never.
 

hopi watcher

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This is uo there with the suggestion to cut the minimum wage by 12%. Is someone seriously suggesting that all those young people who were ripped off by Bertie's friends, who are caught in negative equity and on lifetime plus mortgages, are now to have a property tax lobbed on top of them? Isn't it just typical though, they screw up the economy having spent 10 years sucking the place dry and now the solutions are to hammer those who got little out of the Celtic Tiger. First time house buyers and those on the minimum wage.
 

Wolverine2

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Unless the plan is to refund the stamp duty paid (or at least the balance that would be due) and start afresh on a fair footing, this won't fly.

Otherwise, as leftfemme says, it's just loading another tax on those who had no choice but to pay extravagant stamp duty.
 
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Akrasia said:
myk said:
Who are the National Economic and Social Council?
They are an advisory group who report directly to the office of an taoiseach. They comprise of the same groups who make up the social partners. They are a pretty good indicator of where public policy is heading as they are usually listened to on most issues.

But they do not make Govt Policy they only advise and make suggestions. They have produced in excess of 100 plus papers since they were set up in 1973. Some of what they produce gets debated and implemented but much does not.
 


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