• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

New rubbish Irish Trains

Milano

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
28
Can anyone out there assist with a point of clarification in regard to our lovely new trains by Irish Rail, as rumour has it that they where cast-offs from the Dutch rail system who rejected the quality that was delivered to them ?

<Mod> Moved to Transport. </Mod>
 


Centurian

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
118
I'll investigate if you can tell me who they're manufactured by....
 

Diogenes

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Messages
4
They're Rotem IE 22000 class from South Korea. I can't find anything on the Dutch rejecting them.
 

locke

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
3,173
Dutch trains aren't the highest quality themselves, so I'd be surprised. Also, the Dutch have a different gauge (and more importantly kinetic envelope), so it wouldn't just be a case of flogging them on to the Irish.
 

atlantic

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
I heard that rumour alright,thats why they have no dining facilities on some routes,as they where suppose to be used like a type of dart.
 

Joe Ryan

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
32
The trians are in 2 parts the coach which is made in Korea and the chasis and wheels constructed in Japan. The only place they can test them on our gauge is either here or in Oz.
Given the speed of the train and the size of Holland i reckon you'd do Amsterdam Groinigen in 75 minutes non stop. Can't see much time for dining on that run unless you want a train full of dining cars!
 

solair

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
41
That rumour is utter nonsense. The new trains are custom built and custom designed for Iarnrod Eireann / Irish Rail.
They're in two batches:

1) The Cork-Dublin Express - built by CAF in the Basque Country in Spain. These ultimately will run at 200 km/h.

2) The Intercity DMU trains -These are built by a consortium lead by Mitsui of Japan, involving Tokyu Car (Japan) and Rotem (South Korea) and will run on all other lines except Cork and Belfast. These have engines under the floor so each coach can power itself. The trains can be configured in any length pretty much so they're completely flexible and can be as long or as short as passenger demand dictates. It means that on more marginal services that they can increase frequency and comfort

Not all of these trains have been delivered yet, so the initial trains don't have dining cars. However, these will start appearing on the rails soon. The busier services e.g. to Galway, Waterford, Tralee, Limerick etc will have the same level of dining car services as the current new Cork-Dublin fleet as well as a first class coach.

These new trains are manufactured and designed by Mitusi of Japan in conjunction with Rotem in South Korea.

They're actually quite nice on board too compared to the old crocks that were on a lot of lines here.

They're absolutely NOT cast off or second hand.

Intercity DMUs of this kind of design are common on most intercity routes in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. They're ideal for the kind of population spread that we have and the kind of passenger numbers that you get on Irish lines.

DMUs also have the following advantages due to the fact that there are multiple engines (2 per coach)
1) They can accelerate very rapidly, meaning they can get up to their top speed quickly - in an Irish context where you've short (relatively) distances and a lot of stops, this speeds things up more dramatically than a high top speed.
2) If an engine fails, you train keeps going - this improves reliability enormously.

The Cork-Dublin line is a slightly different configuration because the passenger numbers are huge compared to the rest of the country. That line also is much longer and operates at higher speed with fewer stops. Ultimately, these will have 2 engines i.e. 2 pointy 'power cars' one on each end. This is in the design for the fleet from day one.
 

atlantic

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
200km ?why is it that it take the same time to travel from Mayo to Dublin as it did nearly fifty years ago(Are you right there Micheal are you right)
solair said:
That rumour is utter nonsense. The new trains are custom built and custom designed for Iarnrod Eireann / Irish Rail.
They're in two batches:

1) The Cork-Dublin Express - built by CAF in the Basque Country in Spain. These ultimately will run at 200 km/h.

2) The Intercity DMU trains that will run on all other lines except Cork and Belfast. These have engines under the floor so each coach can power itself. The trains can be configured in any length pretty much so they're completely flexible and can be as long or as short as passenger demand dictates. It means that on more marginal services that they can increase frequency and comfort

Not all of these trains have been delivered yet, so the initial trains don't have dining cars. However, these will start appearing on the rails soon. The busier services e.g. to Galway, Waterford, Tralee, Limerick etc will have the same level of dining car services as the current new Cork-Dublin fleet as well as a first class coach.

These new trains are manufactured and designed by Mitusi of Japan in conjunction with Rotem in South Korea.

They're actually quite nice on board too compared to the old crocks that were on a lot of lines here.

They're absolutely NOT cast off or second hand.
.
 

solair

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
41
Well you can't just run the train at top speed the entire way:

Signalling issues - i.e. the system that controls where trains are on the tracks. Most of our lines, except Cork Dublin and Dublin Belfast are single track. This means that trains have to wait turns to go in either direction on any particular section of track. Much of the signalling is not very efficient, (even if it's computerised) so the wait times are often unnecessarily long. This is why you can be stuck in the middle of nowhere waiting for apparently no reason.

Even on double-track lines, there can be pointless waiting due to badly designed signalling.

Then there are track quality issues that mean that trains are limited to slower speeds than they're truly capable of.
Many sections of line are also not in great condition, particularly once you get away from the busier 'flag ship' routes like Cork-Dublin. This means that the trains have to run at limited speeds for comfort and safety reasons!!
Think of it as driving a brand new sports car down a boreen with potholes. If you were going to drive at 200km/h you'd bounce off into a hedge!

Coming into Dublin (mostly) but also into Cork and Belfast your high speed intercity train can also get stuck behind a local commuter train running at half the speed. This can also cause huge delays, particularly on the Enterprise as if it misses a signalling slot it can end up stuck behind multiple DARTs or Belfast local trains.

You can have the fastest trains in the world, but if the network's not up to running them at full speed, they won't make any difference to journey times.

On top of that, you've got to take into account that trains need to stop at quite a lot of stations on many routes. Everytime a train stops it takes it a good 20 mins to return to top speed. The new trains should improve this because they've better acceleration, however, Irish Rail will need to modify the timetables too.

Also, Irish Rail incorporate a lot of 'padding' to timetables to avoid trains being officially late thus improving their statistics!!!

The main thing that these new trains will do in the short to medium term is improve frequency and passenger comfort. Even the old trains were quite capable of going a lot faster than they've ever run in recent years...
 

locke

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
3,173
I believe that the locomotives that pull the CDE carriages have a maximum speed of 160km/h, even though the carriages themselves are designed for 200km/h also.
 

solair

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
41
That's how they're designed though.

Their initial operation is with the existing Irish Rail "201" locomotives which have a top speed of just over 100mph (160 km/h ish)

At present the Cork-Dublin line can't support higher speeds until it's re-signalled and they've straightened out some of the messier junctions and bendy bits.

So, they had the power cars designed, but they're not yet built!

It was a cost saving measure because of the budget that was made available for the project at the time.

Basically, what Irish Rail were planning was to order the power cars at a later date. The previous generation of orange Cork-Dublin trains could also run at 200 km/h btw!

I'd agree it was a short sighted decision not to just buy the power cars when they were buying the new trains. However, that was the budget that was made available by the Government for the project, so you can really only blame the Minister for Transport at the time....

We've never had a good record when it came to planning our public transport expenditure!!

That being said, when it comes to top speed, they need to improve the efficiency on the line. Even if they were running at 200km/h it won't make the slightest bit of difference until they address all the signalling and track quality issues.
 

Milano

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
28
How did Italy get it right 40 years ago trains at speeds of 220 km and you say our Tracks are not good enough, and can I say the old Tracks were installed way better than the new conret jobs they now have installed. So why are we wasting Money if our Tracks cannot take those Lovely new trains, and let save all that oil and go back to steam as they were as fast in 1898 as they are now ( Paddy Progress its a good job we are not goning to Mars) in fairness to paddy it was not him who designed the seats, as they were designed to seat Japnease or Children
 

locke

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
3,173
Milano said:
So why are we wasting Money if our Tracks cannot take those Lovely new trains
That's a chicken and egg scenario. If you don't have trains capable of running at 200km/h, why upgrade the track? So long as those trains are one day running at 200km/h it was sensible to build to that specification.
 

solair

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
41
Well there's also the question of population centres. We don't really have the big centralised population centres like Paris that can justify the scale of investment to go beyond conventional high-ish speed intercity speeds.

Building high speed railways (over 200km/h) i.e. when you're heading towards speeds that they use on TGV lines and other similar systems they have to build the lines from scratch. The costs involved are similar to, but often higher than, motorway construction. You would be looking at building an entirely new railway network from scratch.

Even in France, where high speed lines are fairly extensive, the actual TGV lines are limited to a few core routes. While the TGV trains run to other areas, they do not run at top speed and use conventional lines typically running at more like 90 to 125mph. They just hit max speeds on the 'backbone' lines that link the major cities.

Speeds approaching 200km/h in Ireland would actually provide pretty ideal service. The problem here isn't the top speed as the distances aren't big enough for that to really make a huge difference.

The entire problem is the layout of the lines and the signalling systems. They're the bottle necks, not the top speed of the trains.

You'll find that other countries with similar population spread to Ireland don't generally get much above 200km/h other than on long-distance international services that go outside their boarders onwards into the rest of continental Europe.

What you need here is clever use of 160-200km/h services ... it would allow Dublin-Cork in 1:30 to 1:45 for example without much difficulty or Dublin to Galway in an hour...
Dublin to Belfast should be reachable in an hour at relatively conventional speed too.

You don't need TGVs to do this, the distances in Ireland are TINY.

The UK's network is largely limited to 200km/h max too btw, and most of it runs slower ... again this is down to the distances involved. Really only London to Scotland services would warrant TGV links for time reduction purposes.
 

DaveM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
15,963
Milano said:
How did Italy get it right 40 years ago trains at speeds of 220 km and you say our Tracks are not good enough, and can I say the old Tracks were installed way better than the new conret jobs they now have installed. So why are we wasting Money if our Tracks cannot take those Lovely new trains, and let save all that oil and go back to steam as they were as fast in 1898 as they are now ( Paddy Progress its a good job we are not goning to Mars) in fairness to paddy it was not him who designed the seats, as they were designed to seat Japnease or Children
The routes that trains follow were mostly built in the 19th century. If they were designed with modern rolling stock in mind the lines would be far straighter without bends that necessitate the need to limit speeds. On some lines higher volumes of traffic limit journey times, e.g. Dublin-Cork is much busier than in the past and there are also commuter services operating between Kildare and Dublin. On other lines the tracks limit the speed so it doesn't matter what rolling stock you put on them, journey times cannot improve without new track. On lines such as those to Westport or Wexford the demand for the services simply doesn't justify the huge investment required to rectify the problem.
 

Milano

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
28
As you say one of thes days in the future we may live to see Irish Trains at 200 Km, but with the way thing are goning we may not have disel for the Train or if we have it will be only once a year we can afford to travel by Train, so what is safer Disel or steam? Maybe the indians are right
 

Piaras

Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
11
The new Dublin to Cork service is pretty good. Travelled a number of times due to working in Cork for 3 months and in pretty much every case the journey took between 2hrs 40 and just under 3 hrs. The one exception to this was when I had to get one of the local trains from cork to mallow and it broke down along the way.
 

atlantic

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
If we had right trains(bullit) , rails ,prices that were cost effective,right planning ,we would not have the urban sprawl we see in Dublin .But the Gombeen Ministers ,tds,planners in this country could not orangise or plan a ride in a whorehouse.
 

joel

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
803
Milano said:
How did Italy get it right 40 years ago trains at speeds of 220 km and you say our Tracks are not good enough, and can I say the old Tracks were installed way better than the new conret jobs they now have installed. So why are we wasting Money if our Tracks cannot take those Lovely new trains, and let save all that oil and go back to steam as they were as fast in 1898 as they are now ( Paddy Progress its a good job we are not goning to Mars) in fairness to paddy it was not him who designed the seats, as they were designed to seat Japnease or Children

New name, again, Terry? - same old Irish-knocking crap, though. Paddy doen't need or want you - get back to blighty.
 

DaveM

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
15,963
atlantic said:
If we had right trains(bullit) , rails ,prices that were cost effective,right planning ,we would not have the urban sprawl we see in Dublin .But the Gombeen Ministers ,tds,planners in this country could not orangise or plan a ride in a whorehouse.
I agree. You should write a strongly worded letter to Daniel O'Connell and cc it to Isambard Kingdom Brunel. How could they not have considered the possibility of TGV style trains in their designs? Pair of gombeen swines!!!
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top