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New study claims Nazi holocaust killed 15 to 20 million.


parentheses

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Little_Korean

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parentheses

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Makes a change from people arguing that it was lower than believed.
The interesting thing is that the historical research now going on is reducing the death toll caused by Stalin's communists but the toll killed by the Nazis is increasing rapidly. Uncle Joe maybe was not quite as bad as portrayed.
 

Clanrickard

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The interesting thing is that the historical research now going on is reducing the death toll caused by Stalin's communists but the toll killed by the Nazis is increasing rapidly. Uncle Joe maybe was not quite as bad as portrayed.
He was a monster. End of.
 

Little_Korean

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The interesting thing is that the historical research now going on is reducing the death toll caused by Stalin's communists but the toll killed by the Nazis is increasing rapidly. Uncle Joe maybe was not quite as bad as portrayed.
Well, as bad in intent, unless everything is judged by number-crunching.
 

ibis

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The interesting thing is that the historical research now going on is reducing the death toll caused by Stalin's communists but the toll killed by the Nazis is increasing rapidly. Uncle Joe maybe was not quite as bad as portrayed.
Comparing the evils of mass murder on the basis of numbers isn't a very useful exercise. Once a regime engages in it numbers merely reflect things like target density, operational efficiency, and available resources rather than the minds behind it.
 

MacO'velli

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Comparing the evils of mass murder on the basis of numbers isn't a very useful exercise. Once a regime engages in it numbers merely reflect things like target density, operational efficiency, and available resources rather than the minds behind it.
Indeed, to paraphrase badly, to kill one person is terrible, to kill millions is a statistic.
 

ibis

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Indeed, to paraphrase badly, to kill one person is terrible, to kill millions is a statistic.
And once people are statistics, they're statistics, not people any more. Anyway, I can't say I'm surprised by the study - the accepted 11-12m figure was going to be, given the state of research post-war, a conservative estimate reflecting the core camps. That including ancillary and minor facilities adds 50% or so to that core figure is reasonable.
 

Windowshopper

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Man the barricades- the neo-nazis are coming.
 

MacO'velli

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The thing is though, the Germans were pretty meticulous about record keeping, so every death that took place throughout nazi occupied lands is more than likely documented somewhere or other.
The USSR however, especially in the early Days of the Stalinist regime, citizens wouldn't even have had birth Certs or any documentation proving they even lived.
 

kerdasi amaq

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Yawn, more post-war Allied propaganda designed to whitewash their war.

How much double and treble counting does this new research involve?
 

opinions

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A new study by Academics claims the Nazis may have killed up to 20 million people during their short reign of terror in Europe. This figure is far higher than older estimates. The majority of the killings would have occurred in Eastern Europe

Nazis may have killed up to 20m, claims 'shocking' new Holocaust study - Telegraph
Probably Israele academics. When are these people going to shut up. Their were many holocausts throughout history and there still going on today.

How many Russians did Stalin kill? how many did Pol Pot kill? how many people were killed in Rwanda? How many victims died in our very own famine?

Do you hear the Russians, Cambodian, Rwandas winge ? Just because Jews were involved they seem to suggest that a Jewish life is Superior to any other of the victims.

It happened over 70 years ago can they just move on?
 

Picasso Republic

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The great unknown has always been the USSR.

When dealing with round figures of millions or half millions, it has been 'relatively easy' to look at most occupied countries pre war populations, look at the post war figure, examine in-country deaths and transport of people then establish a reasonably accurate figure +/-.

Take for instance Jewish figures, it's known that there was a circa 7.5-8.0 million figure pre war and 1.5m remained in the previously occupied countries post war, allow for 0.5 million who resettled after the war (USA & Palestine) and one reaches a figure of 6.0 million murdered.

The only problem is that USSR figures are poor and the real figures for all types of civilians (not only Jews) and soldiers could be massively understated.
 

niall78

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Probably Israele academics. When are these people going to shut up. Their were many holocausts throughout history and there still going on today.

How many Russians did Stalin kill? how many did Pol Pot kill? how many people were killed in Rwanda? How many victims died in our very own famine?

Do you hear the Russians, Cambodian, Rwandas winge ? Just because Jews were involved they seem to suggest that a Jewish life is Superior to any other of the victims.

It happened over 70 years ago can they just move on?
Those that refuse to learn the leasons of history are doomed to repeat it.

We should never 'just move on' - whether the victims are Russians, Cambodian, Rwandan, Irish, Palestinian or Jewish.
 
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Picasso Republic

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Probably Israele academics. When are these people going to shut up. Their were many holocausts throughout history and there still going on today.

How many Russians did Stalin kill? how many did Pol Pot kill? how many people were killed in Rwanda? How many victims died in our very own famine?

Do you hear the Russians, Cambodian, Rwandas winge ? Just because Jews were involved they seem to suggest that a Jewish life is Superior to any other of the victims.

It happened over 70 years ago can they just move on?
Although the European Jewish population was decimated by the Nazis, as the Jewish figure of 6.0 - 6.5 million cannot go much higher (the pre war population in occupied Europe was only 8.0 million tops. I would see the report/study being more related to the millions of Russians killed in Russia and the vast number of Russian civilians and POWs killed 'elsewhere'.
 

Prester Jim

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Mao killed a fair number too and let us not forget that if you relate the number killed to percentage of world population there is only one contender for the most vile mass murderer (or leader of a movement that murdered massively)-
Genghis Khan.
He is estimated to have killed about 11% of the worlds population and some say up to 25% of the worlds population.
Worse they did not have industrial methods, poison gas or machine guns, most of the murder was done by hand, sword, dagger, arrow etc.
Still the national hero of Mongolia...
 

JohnD66

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The interesting thing is that the historical research now going on is reducing the death toll caused by Stalin's communists but the toll killed by the Nazis is increasing rapidly. Uncle Joe maybe was not quite as bad as portrayed.
No, you're wrong. I'll quote a lifelong communist Eric Hobsbawm on the matter,

"Still, whatever assumptions are made, the number of direct and indirect victims [of Stalin] must be measured in eight rather than seven digits. In these circumstances it does not much matter whether we opt for a "conservative" estimate nearer to ten than to twenty million or a larger figure: none can be anything but shameful and beyond palliation, let alone justification. I add, without comment, that the total population of the USSR in 1937 was said to have been 164 millions, or 16.7 millions less than the demographic forecasts of the Second Five-Year Plan (1933–38)".

It's well past time that vilifying the Nazis (thoroughly deserved) should stop meaning also rehabilitating the Stalinists. 'Slightly less barbaric than the Nazis' is not praise.
 

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