No Deal unless the Irish border backstop is scrapped

Newrybhoy

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The GFA is still there. And the UK is still in the EU (because the UK parliament is incompetent. There's nowhere else to lay the blame ).

It is highly possible that, if or when the UK finally manage to organise themselves to leave the EU, then the GTA will no longer be there.

This is the point.

Honestly, you're following the same line as those who say, "Brexit's no problem, I"ve no trouble with my suppliers and buying online." Of course they don't, Brexit hasn't happened yet and, despite all the huffing and puffing, The UK is still a member of the EU.
The UK is still a member due to the 5th column who have infiltrated Westminster.
 


Mickeymac

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Southerners? South Belfast? South Antrim?...

Lots of it for sale all round...even more shortly when we'll also be getting "hormone and anti biotic riddled" US Beef, if you Brexshitters get your way...ah well, even in that event our present 1% lead in the polls for a UI will be at least quadrupled and probably more...:LOL:

Indeed sir, looked at two graphs today and both had one thing in common,,,,,,,,,UI is imminent in any poll and a further delay would show a 60% plus agreement in that poll.

Looks to me 50% plus one vote at the moment is assured, further delay boosts that percentage even further.
 

Se0samh

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So, you approve of South American beef imports into the EU but object to North American beef imports?

A bit hypocritical don't you think?
Personally won't buy any...but just like bad money driving out good, so too with bad beef...the more of it about, the less of the good stuff...until there is no good stuff left...so no, not hypocritical at all...
 

Mickeymac

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Like balloons Mickey...reach a certain point and...BANG...I'm surprised it took so long...

A guy once told me in the (wait for it) union jack bar in Philly...…..tell an Englishman a joke and he laughs three days later. :ROFLMAO:
 

Enoch Root

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The UK is still a member due to the 5th column who have infiltrated Westminster.
NO, the UK are still a member of the EU because they are having a political crisis that is internal to the Uk and completely of their own making.

In fact, the UK have gone cap in hand to the EU to ask for two extensions so far.

The UK negotiating team should have never have signed off the the WA if it was expected that it would not pass the HoC. But they did.

The UK f**ked up, and have spent their two extensions doing nothing except internal point scoring and party politicking. All they have done is waste time and compound their problems.

Whether before or after a Brexit, the UK will sign up to the terms of the WA, and all of the faff of the last months will have been shown to be completely pointless and unnecessary.

There is no "5th column" in Westminster. No-one infiltrated Westminster. What has happened is that this Brexit omnishambles has clarified that Westminster is simply not fit for purpose.

There is no "unwritten constitution". What there is, which Brexit has made abundantly clear, is a group of adults sitting a museum, acting as boorish twelve year olds.

The Uk doesn't need Brexit. The UK needs internal reform in order to function as a constitutional democracy.
 

Newrybhoy

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Personally won't buy any...but just like bad money driving out good, so too with bad beef...the more of it about, the less of the good stuff...until there is no good stuff left...so no, not hypocritical at all...
It's not the quality we are discussing,it's the fact the EU are allowing South American beef whilst objecting to US beef.

Ultimately it's nothing to do with the standards and everything to do with them getting a favourable deal.

Pure hypocrisy.
 

Newrybhoy

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NO, the UK are still a member of the EU because they are having a political crisis that is internal to the Uk and completely of their own making.

In fact, the UK have gone cap in hand to the EU to ask for two extensions so far.

The UK negotiating team should have never have signed off the the WA if it was expected that it would not pass the HoC. But they did.

The UK f**ked up, and have spent their two extensions doing nothing except internal point scoring and party politicking. All they have done is waste time and compound their problems.

Whether before or after a Brexit, the UK will sign up to the terms of the WA, and all of the faff of the last months will have been shown to be completely pointless and unnecessary.

There is no "5th column" in Westminster. No-one infiltrated Westminster. What has happened is that this Brexit omnishambles has clarified that Westminster is simply not fit for purpose.

There is no "unwritten constitution". What there is, which Brexit has made abundantly clear, is a group of adults sitting a museum, acting as boorish twelve year olds.

The Uk doesn't need Brexit. The UK needs internal reform in order to function as a constitutional democracy.
You can't negotiate with a bunch of europhiles who lied to the public when they got elected on "leave" manifestos, are stabbing you in the back.

A election is required where the Conservatives have purged themselves of remainers and Labour state exactly where they stand.
 

Mickeymac

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NO, the UK are still a member of the EU because they are having a political crisis that is internal to the Uk and completely of their own making.

In fact, the UK have gone cap in hand to the EU to ask for two extensions so far.

The UK negotiating team should have never have signed off the the WA if it was expected that it would not pass the HoC. But they did.

The UK f**ked up, and have spent their two extensions doing nothing except internal point scoring and party politicking. All they have done is waste time and compound their problems.

Whether before or after a Brexit, the UK will sign up to the terms of the WA, and all of the faff of the last months will have been shown to be completely pointless and unnecessary.

There is no "5th column" in Westminster. No-one infiltrated Westminster. What has happened is that this Brexit omnishambles has clarified that Westminster is simply not fit for purpose.

There is no "unwritten constitution". What there is, which Brexit has made abundantly clear, is a group of adults sitting a museum, acting as boorish twelve year olds.

The Uk doesn't need Brexit. The UK needs internal reform in order to function as a constitutional democracy.

Indeed sir, agree 100%, the whole Brexit debacle is about the ongoing war between British conservatives, one side want far far right and the other just the usual right wing anti-socialist, rich get richer section.
 

Se0samh

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It's not the quality we are discussing,it's the fact the EU are allowing South American beef whilst objecting to US beef.

Ultimately it's nothing to do with the standards and everything to do with them getting a favourable deal.

Pure hypocrisy.
Of course it is...who pays for something without judging the quality...the fact that the EU, lets in an agreed minor amount of labelled and sourced amount of Sth. American beef isn't germane to the argument at all...but by the way, the US doesn't want their beef labelled and sourced as such...ask yourself why...hypocrisy? No sir! Not on my side of the argument at least...
 

Mickeymac

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You can't negotiate with a bunch of europhiles who lied to the public when they got elected on "leave" manifestos, are stabbing you in the back.

A election is required where the Conservatives have purged themselves of remainers and Labour state exactly where they stand.

Careful what you wish for DT, both extremes within the British conservative parties do not give a damn for your poxy little orange state.
 

Mickeymac

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Of course it is...who pays for something without judging the quality...the fact that the EU, lets in an agreed minor amount of labelled and sourced amount of Sth. American beef isn't germane to the argument at all...but by the way, the US doesn't want their beef labelled and sourced as such...ask yourself why...hypocrisy? No sir! Not on my side of the argument at least...

That will be a difficult message Se0 to penetrate the minds of folk who are still living in the year 1689. :ROFLMAO:

Some of them, in actual fact, go back even further sir.
 

Enoch Root

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You can't negotiate with a bunch of europhiles who lied to the public when they got elected on "leave" manifestos, are stabbing you in the back.

A election is required where the Conservatives have purged themselves of remainers and Labour state exactly where they stand.
So, in your mind, it was the "Vote Leave" that were the europhiles????

Again, the terms of the WA will be agreed to by the UK, sooner or later.

The two obstacles that are in front of Johnson are the same two obstacles that would face an alternative government: the Brexit Party and the DUP.

Johnson's angle with the Brexit Party is to be more Brexity than they are. His approach was simple; make Brexit happen, hard or soft doesn't matter, as, even in a case of "no deal", no deal will only exist until the terms of the WA are agreed to.

There is no such thing as a "no deal" Brexit. The closest thing would be WA Brexit after a delay to scare MPs into the reality of no trade agreement.

Everything that Johnson says about "do or die" is temporary. Once Brexit happens, the BP have lost their reason to exist as an entity. Job done.

As for the DUP, it's clear which way the wind is blowing. The reality is that the Tories, most other MPs and a large proportion of the British population ( especially in England, but also Scotland and Wales) consider the DUP to be "paddies". They are definitely not English, they're not really British, they are referred to as 'the Irish" regularly in UK media and political circles. The DUP have value only in their 10 votes. As has happened in the past, the DUP only have leverage when those votes count. The Dup are neither respected nor liked by the rest of Westminster. If they can be rid of them, they would be.

It's time for your to embrace your inner Irishness, because Westminster does not embrace your Britishness.

You may hate the idea, but the current Irish government, for all their faults, are who you should be looking towards to save NI, not Westminster,

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Look at this designation. NI may be in the union, but it's not British.
 

Mickeymac

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So, in your mind, it was the "Vote Leave" that were the europhiles????

Again, the terms of the WA will be agreed to by the UK, sooner or later.

The two obstacles that are in front of Johnson are the same two obstacles that would face an alternative government: the Brexit Party and the DUP.

Johnson's angle with the Brexit Party is to be more Brexity than they are. His approach was simple; make Brexit happen, hard or soft doesn't matter, as, even in a case of "no deal", no deal will only exist until the terms of the WA are agreed to.

There is no such thing as a "no deal" Brexit. The closest thing would be WA Brexit after a delay to scare MPs into the reality of no trade agreement.

Everything that Johnson says about "do or die" is temporary. Once Brexit happens, the BP have lost their reason to exist as an entity. Job done.

As for the DUP, it's clear which way the wind is blowing. The reality is that the Tories, most other MPs and a large proportion of the British population ( especially in England, but also Scotland and Wales) consider the DUP to be "paddies". They are definitely not English, they're not really British, they are referred to as 'the Irish" regularly in UK media and political circles. The DUP have value only in their 10 votes. As has happened in the past, the DUP only have leverage when those votes count. The Dup are neither respected nor liked by the rest of Westminster. If they can be rid of them, they would be.

It's time for your to embrace your inner Irishness, because Westminster does not embrace your Britishness.

You may hate the idea, but the current Irish government, for all their faults, are who you should be looking towards to save NI, not Westminster,

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Look at this designation. NI may be in the union, but it's not British.

Excellent assessment ER. 👍
 

Newrybhoy

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So, in your mind, it was the "Vote Leave" that were the europhiles????

Again, the terms of the WA will be agreed to by the UK, sooner or later.

The two obstacles that are in front of Johnson are the same two obstacles that would face an alternative government: the Brexit Party and the DUP.

Johnson's angle with the Brexit Party is to be more Brexity than they are. His approach was simple; make Brexit happen, hard or soft doesn't matter, as, even in a case of "no deal", no deal will only exist until the terms of the WA are agreed to.

There is no such thing as a "no deal" Brexit. The closest thing would be WA Brexit after a delay to scare MPs into the reality of no trade agreement.

Everything that Johnson says about "do or die" is temporary. Once Brexit happens, the BP have lost their reason to exist as an entity. Job done.

As for the DUP, it's clear which way the wind is blowing. The reality is that the Tories, most other MPs and a large proportion of the British population ( especially in England, but also Scotland and Wales) consider the DUP to be "paddies". They are definitely not English, they're not really British, they are referred to as 'the Irish" regularly in UK media and political circles. The DUP have value only in their 10 votes. As has happened in the past, the DUP only have leverage when those votes count. The Dup are neither respected nor liked by the rest of Westminster. If they can be rid of them, they would be.

It's time for your to embrace your inner Irishness, because Westminster does not embrace your Britishness.

You may hate the idea, but the current Irish government, for all their faults, are who you should be looking towards to save NI, not Westminster,

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Look at this designation. NI may be in the union, but it's not British.
In this "designation" it is geographical not political.

The UK passport clearly states British Citizen.
 

Glaucon

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"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Look at this designation. NI may be in the union, but it's not British.
The views of the British are irrelevant to most Unionists. They are British because they consider themselves to be so. They don't care what the so-called "real British" think. This is common enough among the descendants of colonial settlers, the pied-noirs in Algeria were exactly the same with regard to "mainland France". The Gibraltarians (albeit they are mostly descended from "native" Spaniards) are also comparable.

The covenanting tradition involves loyalty in exchange for defined guarantees. Don't forget that the "independent Ulster" strain of Loyalism has always been historically strong. True blue "British like Finchley" are a small minority among Ulster Unionists. Most are Unionist because they feel that it is in their community's interests to be part of the UK as opposed to a united Ireland. The idea that most Unionists will somehow give over centuries of hostility to the CNR community is wishful thinking. A process has started with Alliance-leaning Unionists becoming open to a united Ireland. This is where Nationalism needs to concentrate its efforts. The problem is that Sinn Féin is incapable of refraining from triumphalism and petty fights with the DUP because it enhances their electoral base.
 

Glaucon

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And the people of NI can choose that passport, or an Irish.EU passport, or both, if they wish.
But every citizen of NI is a British citizen at birth. This is not the case for those who choose Irish citizenship because it must be "chosen". It is not accorded automatically.

This is the key weakness of the De Souza case. People have confused the "parity of esteem" clause in the GFA for absolute equality between British and Irish. Whilst it suited both sides to sell it like this in order to cater to everyone, the stark reality is that the British remain sovereign in NI and if people do not want to be British, they must renounce their British citizenship. No Irish citizenship need be "renounced" if it is never applied for.
 

Enoch Root

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The views of the British are irrelevant to most Unionists. They are British because they consider themselves to be so. They don't care what the so-called "real British" think. This is common enough among the descendants of colonial settlers, the pied-noirs in Algeria were exactly the same with regard to "mainland France". The Gibraltarians (albeit they are mostly descended from "native" Spaniards) are also comparable.

The covenanting tradition involves loyalty in exchange for defined guarantees. Don't forget that the "independent Ulster" strain of Loyalism has always been historically strong. True blue "British like Finchley" are a small minority among Ulster Unionists. Most are Unionist because they feel that it is in their community's interests to be part of the UK as opposed to a united Ireland. The idea that most Unionists will somehow give over centuries of hostility to the CNR community is wishful thinking. A process has started with Alliance-leaning Unionists becoming open to a united Ireland. This is where Nationalism needs to concentrate its efforts. The problem is that Sinn Féin is incapable of refraining from triumphalism and petty fights with the DUP because it enhances their electoral base.
True enough.

In the long term (at least another decade or two), I'm pinning my hopes that security and quality of life will win out amongst the majority of voters.

Both unionism and nationalism are evolving, and rather expecting a love inn with hugs all around, I think mutual self-interest will bring people toward the centre will still holding their own political and ideological beliefs.

They won't do it because they have a new-found appreciation for their neighbours, they'll do it because it benefits themselves.

There will always be the entrenched extremes, but hopefully those extremes will not be the primary drivers in NI.

( I can imagine posters on both sides gnashing their teeth at that).

One thing the Brexit disaster of the last months and years has shown us is that o-opting the interests of a whole country, state or area in order to play inter- and intra- politic party games does nothing but harm and cripples the security of the people in the area overall.
 

Enoch Root

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But every citizen of NI is a British citizen at birth. This is not the case for those who choose Irish citizenship because it must be "chosen". It is not accorded automatically.

This is the key weakness of the De Souza case. People have confused the "parity of esteem" clause in the GFA for absolute equality between British and Irish. Whilst it suited both sides to sell it like this in order to cater to everyone, the stark reality is that the British remain sovereign in NI and if people do not want to be British, they must renounce their British citizenship. No Irish citizenship need be "renounced" if it is never applied for.
And this is the importance of the De Souza case, especially in the case of Brexit. It is a "soft section" of the GFA and needs shoring up.
 


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