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No Legal Fees cut with new Legal Services Regulation Bill


kkkkkkkkkk

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Lawyers dont expect fees to be affected with new bill.

Majority of solicitors don

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Global/eNewsletters/ezine/2013/Survey-Irish-law-firms2012.pdf

A CLEAR MAJORITY of Irish law firms have said they do not expect Alan Shatter’s legislation on reforming the legal profession to lower the fees they charge to clients


How are we going to stop these people getting away with leeching of the state ( YOU )
They will protect their outrageous fees till the death. YOU pay a huge amount of those fees.
This money could go to schools or hospitals.

we are a very ignorant people
and deserve everything we get
 


Eye of Angkor

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Feb 20, 2009
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If Mr. Shatter's proposals become law they will significantly reduce access to justice for the ordinary person in Ireland. They are not designed to reduce legal costs. The bits of information in the public domain about the Minister's practice as a solicitor would tell you that!

The price of legal services charged to clients in Ireland has collapsed due to the tried and tested operation of market forces. Corporate and individual clients (including the State) have less money. They are not prepared to pay the level of fees that used to be charged and have cut their cloth accordingly.

The State has slashed the amount it pays in legal fees. The OP is misinformed.
 
Last edited:

kkkkkkkkkk

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If Mr. Shatter's proposals become law they will significantly reduce access to justice for the ordinary person in Ireland. They are not designed to reduce legal costs. The bits of information in the puiblic domain about the Minister's practice as a solicitor would tell you that!

The price of legal services charged to clients in Ireland has collapsed due to the tried and tested operation of market forces. Corporate and individual clients (including the State) have less money. They are not prepared to pay the level of fees that used to be charged and have cut their cloth accordingly.

The State has slashed the amount it pays in legal fees. The OP is misinformed.
can you please give specifics

as usual the legal profession lovers give the bs line, costs are slashed, what does slashed mean ?
 

Eye of Angkor

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Feb 20, 2009
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can you please give specifics

as usual the legal profession lovers give the bs line, costs are slashed, what does slashed mean ?
Over 50% for work done for the Office of the Attorney General.

The cuts in fees paid to prosecution and defence lawyers in criminal matters has been cut by c. 35%.

You might recall that when Mr. Shatter proposed to cut the amount paid to defence lawyers to an amount below that paid to prosecutors the Bar protested. The result was that both sets of fees were cut.

The Taxing Master (an appointee of Mr. Shatter's) has also embarked on a slashing exercise, reducing fees by over 50%. Whilst some of it may be justified, some of it in fact takes no account of the work actually done in the case.

As for the private sector, I would estimate that fees have fallen between 1/3 and 1/2 since 2008. That is if you get paid. A common tactic of chancers (many of whom present as reasonable people) is to complain to the Law Society about the level of fees in order to postpone payment. When the Law Society points out that the fees charged are reasonable they come up with some other excuse.

I would like to see how that would work with electrictians, plumbers, roofers etc, not to mention doctors, vets, accountants.

As always, the "bs line" emmanates from those who are ignorant of the realities of life.
 

borntorum

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May 26, 2008
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12,805
Hey Special K, I thought you said Shatter was going to sort out all those legal leeches once and for all? What's happened to your hero?
 

im axeled

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Hey Special K, I thought you said Shatter was going to sort out all those legal leeches once and for all? What's happened to your hero?
it was the other way around, they sorted him again, this is the 2nd time that he has been left with egg on his puss remember the referendum incident when the mullah and his cohorts wiped the street with him.
 

pinemartin

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Jun 7, 2006
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Over 50% for work done for the Office of the Attorney General.

The cuts in fees paid to prosecution and defence lawyers in criminal matters has been cut by c. 35%.
When you say a cut of 50% or 35%, what does that mean in real terms? How much do they actually get paid per hour/ day?

It is like saying that Marian Finucane has taken a cut of 15%( i dont know if she has) and thinking that is reasonable when in fact she is getting paid an exorbitant rate in the first instance. You cannot make a value judgement on fees by looking at the % they were cut when you do not know how much they were in the first place.
 

Eye of Angkor

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Messages
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When you say a cut of 50% or 35%, what does that mean in real terms? How much do they actually get paid per hour/ day?

It is like saying that Marian Finucane has taken a cut of 15%( i dont know if she has) and thinking that is reasonable when in fact she is getting paid an exorbitant rate in the first instance. You cannot make a value judgement on fees by looking at the % they were cut when you do not know how much they were in the first place.
In the private sector the legal services market is very competitive. You can get (and most clients now seek) an estimate or agree a set fee in advance - however each deal is separate for the obvious reason that every piece of work is different. The same applies in most self-employed trades.

As of the State, in its dealings with the Bar it has traditionally paid below the market rate for its legal services. It can do that because of its huge power in the market for legal services.

It is now using that muscle like never before to drive down the amount it is prepared to pay for those services. The supplier has no choice and cannot bargain. S/he can like it or lump it.

Most State work is in the nature of piecework: i.e. it pays for a service, not by the hour/per day. It does not care if you spend 10 hours or 1 hour on something: it pays for the finished product. Experience of other jurisdictions shows that an hourly billing system (which Mr. Shatter appears to be keen on) drives fees up. The State thus benefits by paying for work done and not hours recorded.

The answer is that there is no agreed scale of per hour/per day. Such a system would be illegal as contrary to Competition law. It would also be economically inefficient. The current system rewards the efficient and penalises the inefficient. There is no reward for taking longer than necessary in doing a job. Under a system of reward by the hour/day the person who takes 10 hours to do the job gets paid more.
 

kkkkkkkkkk

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nobody is saying these legal leeches should not be paid well
but a fair wage

here is a breakdown of legal fees in Ireland

see this report from the EU http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/pub...ireland_en.pdf



In commercial firms the Solicitors fees are charged on an hourly rate. Schedule
Trainee
€150 per hour
Solicitors
€220 per hour
Associate
€280 per hour
Partner
€360 per hour
Senior Partner
€450 per hour

Small firms with 3 or 4 solicitors will charge according to the value of the claim and according to the complexities to the issues. Barrister’s fees can be broken down as follows:
Consultation Fees
Senior Counsel – up to €500 Junior Counsel – up to €300
Attendance at pre- trial Motion
Junior Counsel – up to €500
Drafting documentation for the claim e.g. Defence
Senior Counsel – up to €1000 Junior Counsel – up to €500
Brief Fee
Senior Counsel – up to €5000 Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Refresher fees (appearance in court)
Senior Counsel – up to €1,000 per day Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Barrister’s fees will vary depending on the value of the claim. Depending on the type of claim the following other expenses are incurred by the parties to a claim:
Witness Expenses Witness Expenses cont’d
Stamp for Summons - €15 Viaticum – approx. €50 Travel Expenses – up to €100 Loss of Work – up to €300 Evidence by video link – up to €300
Expert Witnesses
Fee for Expert Report – up to €1000 Fee for attendance at court – from €300 per hour
Court fees
All documentation for the courts is stamped. E.g. Plenary Summons costs €110.
VAT
Professional Fees and services are V.A.T. at the rate of 21%
 

Diawlbach

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Jul 20, 2011
Messages
10,461
nobody is saying these legal leeches should not be paid well
but a fair wage

here is a breakdown of legal fees in Ireland

see this report from the EU http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/pub...ireland_en.pdf



In commercial firms the Solicitors fees are charged on an hourly rate. Schedule
Trainee
€150 per hour
Solicitors
€220 per hour
Associate
€280 per hour
Partner
€360 per hour
Senior Partner
€450 per hour

Small firms with 3 or 4 solicitors will charge according to the value of the claim and according to the complexities to the issues. Barrister’s fees can be broken down as follows:
Consultation Fees
Senior Counsel – up to €500 Junior Counsel – up to €300
Attendance at pre- trial Motion
Junior Counsel – up to €500
Drafting documentation for the claim e.g. Defence
Senior Counsel – up to €1000 Junior Counsel – up to €500
Brief Fee
Senior Counsel – up to €5000 Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Refresher fees (appearance in court)
Senior Counsel – up to €1,000 per day Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Barrister’s fees will vary depending on the value of the claim. Depending on the type of claim the following other expenses are incurred by the parties to a claim:
Witness Expenses Witness Expenses cont’d
Stamp for Summons - €15 Viaticum – approx. €50 Travel Expenses – up to €100 Loss of Work – up to €300 Evidence by video link – up to €300
Expert Witnesses
Fee for Expert Report – up to €1000 Fee for attendance at court – from €300 per hour
Court fees
All documentation for the courts is stamped. E.g. Plenary Summons costs €110.
VAT
Professional Fees and services are V.A.T. at the rate of 21%
Elegant way to show your figures are hopelessly out of date. You really should pay a bit more attention when regurgitating the same old drivel that's been hammered time and again.
 

NewGoldDream

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Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
20,879
Website
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Elegant way to show your figures are hopelessly out of date. You really should pay a bit more attention when regurgitating the same old drivel that's been hammered time and again.
I'm just glad he didn't use guineas...
 

Eye of Angkor

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
338
nobody is saying these legal leeches should not be paid well
but a fair wage

here is a breakdown of legal fees in Ireland

see this report from the EU http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/pub...ireland_en.pdf



In commercial firms the Solicitors fees are charged on an hourly rate. Schedule
Trainee
€150 per hour
Solicitors
€220 per hour
Associate
€280 per hour
Partner
€360 per hour
Senior Partner
€450 per hour

Small firms with 3 or 4 solicitors will charge according to the value of the claim and according to the complexities to the issues. Barrister’s fees can be broken down as follows:
Consultation Fees
Senior Counsel – up to €500 Junior Counsel – up to €300
Attendance at pre- trial Motion
Junior Counsel – up to €500
Drafting documentation for the claim e.g. Defence
Senior Counsel – up to €1000 Junior Counsel – up to €500
Brief Fee
Senior Counsel – up to €5000 Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Refresher fees (appearance in court)
Senior Counsel – up to €1,000 per day Junior Counsel – 50% to 2/3 of the above
Barrister’s fees will vary depending on the value of the claim. Depending on the type of claim the following other expenses are incurred by the parties to a claim:
Witness Expenses Witness Expenses cont’d
Stamp for Summons - €15 Viaticum – approx. €50 Travel Expenses – up to €100 Loss of Work – up to €300 Evidence by video link – up to €300
Expert Witnesses
Fee for Expert Report – up to €1000 Fee for attendance at court – from €300 per hour
Court fees
All documentation for the courts is stamped. E.g. Plenary Summons costs €110.
VAT
Professional Fees and services are V.A.T. at the rate of 21%
As ancient as the Dead Sea Scrolls, I'm afraid!
 

bactrian

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
1,232
Lawyers dont expect fees to be affected with new bill.

Majority of solicitors don

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Global/eNewsletters/ezine/2013/Survey-Irish-law-firms2012.pdf

A CLEAR MAJORITY of Irish law firms have said they do not expect Alan Shatter’s legislation on reforming the legal profession to lower the fees they charge to clients


How are we going to stop these people getting away with leeching of the state ( YOU )
They will protect their outrageous fees till the death. YOU pay a huge amount of those fees.
This money could go to schools or hospitals.

we are a very ignorant people
and deserve everything we get

kkkkkkkkkk you are Trolling again.

kkkkkkkkkk you saw the line :

"A CLEAR MAJORITY of Irish law firms have said they do not expect Alan Shatter’s legislation on reforming the legal profession to lower the fees they charge to clients "

and exploded in your (short-fused) righteous anger. Why put the statement in context when you can have an ill-informed rant.

In the context where the oversight of lawyers is to be taken from lawyers and the review of legal costs is to be taken from lawyers and given to an independent body , the Solicitors have merely said that they believe the level of fees charged by them is fair and will stand up to independent scrutiny.


If these lawyers are overly optimistic, wrong , or just plain lying they will be quickly found out. If they are proven right it will show that the costs charged by them are reasonable.

Time will tell
 

kkkkkkkkkk

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Joined
May 2, 2011
Messages
1,641
kkkkkkkkkk you are Trolling again.

kkkkkkkkkk you saw the line :

"A CLEAR MAJORITY of Irish law firms have said they do not expect Alan Shatter’s legislation on reforming the legal profession to lower the fees they charge to clients "

and exploded in your (short-fused) righteous anger. Why put the statement in context when you can have an ill-informed rant.

In the context where the oversight of lawyers is to be taken from lawyers and the review of legal costs is to be taken from lawyers and given to an independent body , the Solicitors have merely said that they believe the level of fees charged by them is fair and will stand up to independent scrutiny.


If these lawyers are overly optimistic, wrong , or just plain lying they will be quickly found out. If they are proven right it will show that the costs charged by them are reasonable.

Time will tell
hard to believe that in 2013
the legal profession is self regulated, incredibile

the sooner we get independent regulation the better
 

Researchwill

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Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
4,779
When you say a cut of 50% or 35%, what does that mean in real terms? How much do they actually get paid per hour/ day?

It is like saying that Marian Finucane has taken a cut of 15%( i dont know if she has) and thinking that is reasonable when in fact she is getting paid an exorbitant rate in the first instance. You cannot make a value judgement on fees by looking at the % they were cut when you do not know how much they were in the first place.
In real terms an example legal aid for a jury trial paid just over€1500 to a fee of €1144. While that fee is for a day it does not take into account all work doen before that day as on legal aid you only get paid once the client is arraigned.
 

Researchwill

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Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
4,779
hard to believe that in 2013
the legal profession is self regulated, incredibile

the sooner we get independent regulation the better

Most lawyers especially solicitors want independent regulation, but independent of government as well.

BTW if you really think its such a gravy train why don't you just qualify and start milking it sure with so much money to be made and no regulation why stand outside pissing in when you can stand inside pissing out.
 

kkkkkkkkkk

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2011
Messages
1,641
BTW if you really think its such a gravy train why don't you just qualify and start milking it sure with so much money to be made and no regulation why stand outside pissing in when you can stand inside pissing out.
its amazing how the "legal leeches supporters club"
always attack the poster

they never address the issue
how the people of Ireland are paying their crazy fat wages
 

Paddyc

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Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
9,262
Oh please...

We don't get paid wages, we get paid a salary. Wages are blue collar...

Thank you very much.
 

NewGoldDream

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Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
20,879
Website
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hard to believe that in 2013
the legal profession is self regulated, incredibile

the sooner we get independent regulation the better
I think most Solicitors would agree.

The sooner the Law Society becomes a representative body, the better. At the moment it seems to be another vehicle used by banks to put pressure on Solicitors when they claim that, no no, the problem is not that they gave an insane amount of money to a debtor and the property market collapsed, the problem is that the Solicitor did not advise them that a boundary was one metre out and that's where they have incurred their losses. One need only compare the amount of Solicitors struck off to, say Doctors, to realise that there is something very wrong with the current set up.
 

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