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Noonan says FG's Jobs plan not credible. Then he reads it and changes his mind.


cyberianpan

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Michael Noonan says FG's New Era plan is not credible, and that Enda Kenny's claims of 105,000 jobs were a mistake by excitable spin doctors in HR :shock2:

Noonan says Fine Gael's economic stimulus plan not credible - The Irish Times - Thu, Jul 15, 2010
In his leader’s address to the Fine Gael national conference on March 22nd, Mr Kenny said: “Simon’s NewERA plan will create over 105,000 jobs.”

“Quite frankly I don’t believe it would.” He[Noonan] suggested the figure was added on to the report by “enthusiastic” public relations personnel.
SO he rubbishes the plan, FG's spin doctors and his party leader ? Maybe Noonan will prove to be an inspired appointment...

cYp
 


hiding behind a poster

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A few simple questions.

1) Where does he rubbish the plan? Nowhere. He simply says the final jobs figure may have been added onto the report by "enthusiastic PR personnel". He doesn't say anything bad about the plan itself.

2) Where does he rubbish FG's spin doctors? Nowhere. The PR personnel may not be FG staff at all, just contracted to do some work relating to this document. And does he even "rubbish" them? No. He just says they were "enthusiastic".

3) Where does he rubbish the party leader? Again, nowhere. He's not mentioned in the report that Cyberianpan is quoting from.

So as usual, a thread started by Cyberianpan about Fine Gael is long on crap, short on facts. Par for the course.
 

stonethrower

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Fair play to Noonan for being honest.

Five months ago I highlighted the problems with this so called plan. There is good stuff in there, but there is a lot that doesn't add up or make sense. Noonan is to be commended for telling it as it is, we have had 13 years of poor policy making.

http://www.politics.ie/fine-gael/123895-fine-gael-mad-newera-plan.html
 

davehiggz

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As far as I can see he's only criticised the slogan of 100,000 jobs.

When Simon gave a speech on this topic to FG members he emphasised that he had sent his proposals to the World Bank and other institutions to see how many jobs the plan could create. Simon describes 100,000 as a "conservative" figure and that the knock off and long term jobs would be above 100,000 according to the independent analysis he received.

I'm surprised by Noonan's comments and I just don't know who to believe but it's good to see Noonan going through all our policies in detail.
 

stonethrower

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As far as I can see he's only criticised the slogan of 100,000 jobs.

When Simon gave a speech on this topic to FG members he emphasised that he had sent his proposals to the World Bank and other institutions to see how many jobs the plan could create. Simon describes 100,000 as a "conservative" figure and that the knock off and long term jobs would be above 100,000 according to the independent analysis he received.

I'm surprised by Noonan's comments and I just don't know who to believe but it's good to see Noonan going through all our policies in detail.
Take this as a positive that Noonan is willing to call it as it is. I don't think FF can lecture anyone on economic credibility and given the mess we are in, Noonan and FG would rise in my esteem if they were willing to look very carefully at all proposals and even say, well on reflection that may not work. FG have always been the party of fiscal prudence.
 

Sync

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A few simple questions.

1) Where does he rubbish the plan? Nowhere. He simply says the final jobs figure may have been added onto the report by "enthusiastic PR personnel". He doesn't say anything bad about the plan itself.

2) Where does he rubbish FG's spin doctors? Nowhere. The PR personnel may not be FG staff at all, just contracted to do some work relating to this document. And does he even "rubbish" them? No. He just says they were "enthusiastic".

3) Where does he rubbish the party leader? Again, nowhere. He's not mentioned in the report that Cyberianpan is quoting from.

So as usual, a thread started by Cyberianpan about Fine Gael is long on crap, short on facts. Par for the course.
You're right, he says nothing negative about the plan at all.

However he's directly calling his leader a liar or a fool. Kenny said there would be 105,000 jobs. Noonan says there won't be and that there was no mention of them in the paper. So either Noonan's lying or mistake, Kenny's lying, or he's an idiot for not having read the paper and just relying on his PR people to educate him.

Those PR people have read a document and then made up a number that isn't mentioned anywhere in it, treated it as fact and given it to their leader to speak about.
 

cyberianpan

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You're right, he says nothing negative about the plan at all.

However he's directly calling his leader a liar or a fool. Kenny said there would be 105,000 jobs. Noonan says there won't be and that there was no mention of them in the paper. So either Noonan's lying or mistake, Kenny's lying, or he's an idiot for not having read the paper and just relying on his PR people to educate him.

Those PR people have read a document and then made up a number that isn't mentioned anywhere in it, treated it as fact and given it to their leader to speak about.
Well they put the jobs figure at the heart of their descriptions

News - FG Jobs Plan

while also creating 105,000 jobs over four years [Kenny]

while also creating 105,000 jobs over four years. [Kenny]

“Over a four year period Simon’s NewERA plan will create over 105,000 jobs. [Kenny]

get the benefit of putting over 100,000 people back to work across a range of sectors and industries.[Coveney]

We estimate up to 40,000 people in the first year alone.[Varadkar]
The plan is pitched as being mainly about creating jobs, the party kept mentioning 100-105K jobs. So I would say that Noonan's criticisms go to the heart of the matter - what good the plan if it doesn't create jobs ? The Irish Times headlined his comments as Noonan says Fine Gael's economic stimulus plan not credible

Overall though I think the debate is a good thing, as the only way "New Era" can be justified is through hard figures, and in general I'm a fan of parties moving to evidence based policies

cYp
 

DaveM

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A few simple questions.

1) Where does he rubbish the plan? Nowhere. He simply says the final jobs figure may have been added onto the report by "enthusiastic PR personnel". He doesn't say anything bad about the plan itself.

2) Where does he rubbish FG's spin doctors? Nowhere. The PR personnel may not be FG staff at all, just contracted to do some work relating to this document. And does he even "rubbish" them? No. He just says they were "enthusiastic".

3) Where does he rubbish the party leader? Again, nowhere. He's not mentioned in the report that Cyberianpan is quoting from.

So as usual, a thread started by Cyberianpan about Fine Gael is long on crap, short on facts. Par for the course.
HBAP, did you hear him being interviewed on Newstalk yesterday morning? When the estimate of 100,000 jobs being created under the New Era plan was raised in the context of the ESRI commentary he was quite dismissive of the New Era projections. He made a remark to the effect of "I never really believed those figures anyway..."

The bottom line is that if FG want to beat the government with the job creation plan stick then at the very least they need to be putting forward a consistent position themselves. When the party's finance spokesman says he doesn't really believe the figures in his own party's plan then it hardly inspires confidence.
 

tenderloins1

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Page 2 of Fine Gaels New Era document states...
• New Jobs: 105,000 new jobs will be created. Although NewERA’s investment programme will largely be funnelled through semi-State companies, most of the new jobs will be created in the private sector through sub-contracting.

So it fairly much was part of the plan.

anyway fair play to Noonan at least he says when something is wrong. Not like our friends who wait hand and foot on the Banks and hang on their every word.
 

KingKane

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Page 2 of Fine Gaels New Era document states...
• New Jobs: 105,000 new jobs will be created. Although NewERA’s investment programme will largely be funnelled through semi-State companies, most of the new jobs will be created in the private sector through sub-contracting.

So it fairly much was part of the plan.

anyway fair play to Noonan at least he says when something is wrong. Not like our friends who wait hand and foot on the Banks and hang on their every word.
So if it created only 95,000 jobs it should be damned as a failure and something we never should have attempted?
 

Iarmhi Gael

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Refreshing to see Fine Gael members be confident to express their own opinion rather then be surpressed by a Party Chief whip.

If this is what we can expect from Irish Politic in future, I think our country is in safe hands. Shame on OP to be so negative on FG again. Open your eyes cYp and see the light.
 

Asparagus

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Jees the anti fg brigade will really need to pick to find things to attack with.

Noonan, him being his own man, has analysed Simon Coveney's New Era Plan - He thinks it is promising too much.
At no point is he calling Enda Kenny a liar or a fool.
He thinks the plan is over ambitious is all - he doesn't rubbish it or slam it - and that kind of sensationalist claim is for the gutter press.
Maybe its not such a big story if the headline is "Noonan thinks FG is slightly ambitious and wants to lower expectations a bit"


Just because you are used to watching the borg FF without any discussion or dissent (breedin b1tches aside) doesn't mean that the other parties are like that.

Labour have policies but they are probably right to not publish them this far out from an election so they can avoid the death by a thousand cuts that the FF mockers and deriders will deliver.
 

il toro

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Take this as a positive that Noonan is willing to call it as it is. I don't think FF can lecture anyone on economic credibility and given the mess we are in, Noonan and FG would rise in my esteem if they were willing to look very carefully at all proposals and even say, well on reflection that may not work. FG have always been the party of fiscal prudence.
Apart from the one time they actuallly won an election and bust the country in the 80's under Garrett the Good.
 

il toro

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So if it created only 95,000 jobs it should be damned as a failure and something we never should have attempted?
So we cannot comment on FG policies at all is that it, what FG says is unquestionable? that a lovely version of democray that FG are working on.

Noonan was very dismissive of the New era plan, The New era plan is the FG plan for goverment, so whats plan B lads?
 

Cael

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What I want to know is: Whare are all these jobs Fine Gael promised we'd get if we changed our vote on Lisbon?

Were Fine Gael lying to us? If so, why should they be trusted in government?
 

cyberianpan

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Refreshing to see Fine Gael members be confident to express their own opinion rather then be surpressed by a Party Chief whip.

If this is what we can expect from Irish Politic in future, I think our country is in safe hands. Shame on OP to be so negative on FG again. Open your eyes cYp and see the light.
I'm actually quite happy that Noonan has called them out on NewEra

There was no slam dunk/ compelling case in NewEra as to why the state must do those projects

Thus NewEra could only be justified by solid cost/benefit analysis

Now a claim that 100,000 jobs can be "made", say at paycost of €40,000 per job - i.e. a total boost of €4 billion p/a - merits significant number crunching analysis to back it up. This wasn't done to any reasonable level of rigor, which means rather than evidence based policy... we get a rhetorical "trust me" style document. In the US Christina Romer and a large team had to perform tour de force econometic analysis to justify their stimulus plan ... evidence based policy is actually bloddy hard work.

What surprises & impresses me is Noonan's candour, as I'd thought he was more populist/sound bitey.

cYp
 

Asparagus

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What I want to know is: Whare are all these jobs Fine Gael promised we'd get if we changed our vote on Lisbon?

Were Fine Gael lying to us? If so, why should they be trusted in government?
The country that trusts it government is a country about to get screwed.

We do need a complete re structure of the republic but unless your gonna lead a revolution FG are significantly the lesser of 2 evils.
Labour are a good junior partner and its down to the personalities to make it work.

Lisbon wasn't about jobs - it was about credibility and popularity. The people were hoodwinked.
 

SinnShane

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Refreshing to see Fine Gael members be confident to express their own opinion rather then be surpressed by a Party Chief whip.
That's one spin on it.

Here's another - Noonan openly dismisses Enda Kenny's economic package as twaddle.

Most people will believe Noonan simply because they think Enda Kenny is such a dead head... can't believe that clown's still in charge of FG.
 

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