"normalising" us Irish. Shameful or a sign of 'maturity', the obsequious engagement with our former masters?

tsarbomb

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Well, it's certainly true to say that our biggest failing as a nation is our pitiful self loathing, so with that in mind it shouldn't come as a surprise that so many people are deferential to our former colonial masters.
 


Itsalaugh

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You started a thread six years back on a similiar theme as to whether our submissive approach to the financial crisis was tied in to a flawed 'national character'.
http://www.politics.ie/forum/culture-community/172601-michael-lewis-assesses-national-character-irish-icelanders-greeks.html
Many posters have kneejerkedly seen this OP as a anti-English rant despite me expliciitly stating the contrary evidence was that the average English person had sympathy for Ireland's less than benign experience with London domination.
I'll repeat extreme nationalism is corrosive to a national chararacter but indoctrinated shame, which RTE led with throughhout most of the last 45 years, is just as harmful.
 

cricket

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On another thread a poster thanked individuals during the period 1970-2000 from this country who gained fame in Britain for "normalising" the Irish. The post colonial cringe - we had to make ourselves acceptable to our oppressors. Is this what many of my compatriots actually believe?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html?amp

Throughout the 20th C. the normal' English - from my experience I believe a large majority - liked us Irish and accepted our right to independence. The imperilialist supporting minority feared our freedom because they knew it'd inspire the anti-colonial spirit throughout their vast empire. A very soft nationalist poster made a salient point many moons back, which I'd never considered before, namely, that our unrequited love to the British Empire, deeply wounded them, almost to the point of heartbreak, and hence the dissed lover partitioned our country knowing the inevitable traumas it'd beseech.

Travel anywhere in the world and we're respected for standing up to the Empire in 1916. Well except for a handfull of caricature Aussie/Kiwi neanderthal loyalists. Ghandi paid homage to Ireland's defiance. While Nelson Mandela believed militant Irish Republicanism was a justifiable outlet. Even during 'the troubles' a large majority in England supported disengagement from NE Ireland. Their most iconic poets John Lennon and Paul McCartney were outspoken against Westminister sponsored abuses in Ireland. Any future ref on reunification is likely to show 80%+ support among the English. Their atonement is almost complete.

But despite this many Irish nationals behave as if we must apologise. This humble submissiveness is now hopefully on the wane, but certainly, must have been badly damaging to the national character. Unchecked nationalism is of course corrosive, but the abject deference displayed in this country to please our former masters was pitiful and embarrassing. It led us to abandoning our kin in Northern Ireland, and what is more actually doing high-fives with the Orange supremacists. Gay Byrne leading a standing ovation for Ian Paisley in the mid 80ies? Pride diseappered from the national narrative and we called this maturity. Shameful is how most of the globe would have whispered out of politeness. No wonder we let ourselfs be mocked back then. Imagine Israeli's behaving like us. They now have most of the English Establishment bending to their will as if the 'King David Hotel' never happened.
You really should have gone to bed early last night.
 

rainmaker

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On another thread a poster thanked individuals during the period 1970-2000 from this country who gained fame in Britain for "normalising" the Irish. The post colonial cringe - we had to make ourselves acceptable to our oppressors. Is this what many of my compatriots actually believe?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html?amp

Throughout the 20th C. the normal' English - from my experience I believe a large majority - liked us Irish and accepted our right to independence. The imperilialist supporting minority feared our freedom because they knew it'd inspire the anti-colonial spirit throughout their vast empire. A very soft nationalist poster made a salient point many moons back, which I'd never considered before, namely, that our unrequited love to the British Empire, deeply wounded them, almost to the point of heartbreak, and hence the dissed lover partitioned our country knowing the inevitable traumas it'd beseech.

Travel anywhere in the world and we're respected for standing up to the Empire in 1916. Well except for a handfull of caricature Aussie/Kiwi neanderthal loyalists. Ghandi paid homage to Ireland's defiance. While Nelson Mandela believed militant Irish Republicanism was a justifiable outlet. Even during 'the troubles' a large majority in England supported disengagement from NE Ireland. Their most iconic poets John Lennon and Paul McCartney were outspoken against Westminister sponsored abuses in Ireland. Any future ref on reunification is likely to show 80%+ support among the English. Their atonement is almost complete.
If you imagine even for a moment that McCartney is one of Britains greatest poets you really are living in a delusional dreamworld of your own making - the same Paul McCartney who gave the world 'The Frog Chorus' - get a grip.

The shocking thing is that that is not even the weirdest part of your version of history, either.
 

Blokesbloke

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Well, it's certainly true to say that our biggest failing as a nation is our pitiful self loathing, so with that in mind it shouldn't come as a surprise that so many people are deferential to our former colonial masters.
*Sniff*. Can't say I've noticed...
 

Blokesbloke

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The fundamental problem with Irish people is not that they defer to the British, but they fail to defer to their own, Irish, betters.

I have noticed this constantly.

You have some of the best people in the world who are leading you, or should be leading you.

But you let petty envy get in the way.

In any other country in the world people would recognise the genius of the Irish elite... Sean Gallagher would have been elected President by a landslide, Joan Burton would be Taoiseach (and would not have suffered attempts on her life when she was Tánaiste) and Ryan Tubridy and Miriam O'Callaghan would be afforded the proper respect they deserve as the superstars of RTÉ.

But no. The jealousy and begrudgery gets you every single time.

You just cannot accept that you do have betters, and you should do as they tell you and be grateful to them.

This is what holds you back.

I am sorry if the British had any hand in this attitude, but really you've been independent long enough now to have grown up.

I mean all of these people are Irish. You wanted independence, you wanted self-rule, you got it and you got some incredible people, but all you do is whinge and do them down.

This prevents them doing their jobs properly.

If you would just let them run things and stop being so obstructive and childish, you would be the best country in the world.
 
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Blokesbloke

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Ah, but you wouldn't, blokes - you're one of our own!
:D :shock2: :shock: :D

That's the nicest thing that's been said about me on this forum!

Though beware - there are a tiny minority of weird resentful types on here who will not like you saying that at all.
 

Mitsui2

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:D :shock2: :shock: :D

That's the nicest thing that's been said about me on this forum!

Though beware - there are a tiny minority of weird resentful types on here who will not like you saying that at all.
That's okay - I suspect that some of them had the bad taste to dislike me already anyway.
 

Strawberry

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Blokesbloke, you have terrible taste in Irish people. Apart from that you're great.
 

tsarbomb

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*Sniff*. Can't say I've noticed...
Ha! Yeah, there's certainly been a lot of undeserved aggression shown towards Britain because of Brexit from some quarters over here. Many Irish are unfortunately prone to bootlicking our so called "betters". In some cases that's the Yanks, in others it's the Brits and in other cases it's the EU. It all ultimately stems from our self loathing.
 

rainmaker

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Ha! Yeah, there's certainly been a lot of undeserved aggression shown towards Britain because of Brexit from some quarters over here. Many Irish are unfortunately prone to bootlicking our so called "betters".
I don't know about aggression, but I have certainly picked on some hostility.

Then to be fair the Irish are going to be hugely affected by it & all it's associated risks and it is a situation not of their making and over which they have very little control - I doubt I would be to happy either.
 

tsarbomb

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I don't know about aggression, but I have certainly picked on some hostility.

Then to be fair the Irish are going to be hugely affected by it & all it's associated risks and it is a situation not of their making and over which they have very little control - I doubt I would be to happy either.
It's a bit more than unhappiness to be fair. Brexit is typically treated as being an illegitimate political choice and the people who voted for it made out to be irrational. There will obviously be some difficulties depending on the type of deal that's negotiated, but at the end of the day it was a British choice to make and they were perfectly entitled to want to leave.
 

Who is John Galt?

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One great recent example of our madness is the idea that the whole of one side of Moore St. should be preserved in its origional decrepit state just because a few chancers used it in an abject retreat from a stupid rebellion.
Their puffed up, self-important descendants give me a severe pain in my lunch box.
 

rainmaker

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It's a bit more than unhappiness to be fair. Brexit is typically treated as being an illegitimate political choice and the people who voted for it made out to be irrational. There will obviously be some difficulties depending on the type of deal that's negotiated, but at the end of the day it was a British choice to make and they were perfectly entitled to want to leave.
Oh I don't view it as irrational, more misguided scapegoating for things that our central governments (of all political shades) should actually have been held accountable for.
 

tsarbomb

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Oh I don't view it as irrational, more misguided scapegoating for things that our central governments (of all political shades) should actually have been held accountable for.
Certainly there was quite a bit of scapegoating on the part of leave voters, but there were plenty of good reasons to vote to leave the EU also. In some quarters in Ireland there's a 'yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir' attitude towards the EU, and that's what is really at the heart of the hostility towards leave voters.
 

pumpkinpie

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Well, it's certainly true to say that our biggest failing as a nation is our pitiful self loathing, so with that in mind it shouldn't come as a surprise that so many people are deferential to our former colonial masters.
I think you must be imagining things. Irish people aren't self-loathing, self-deprecating yes and a lot of the youth identify more with Europe than with Ireland because they've been conditioned to but I'm not aware of deference to what you describe as former colonial masters. Ireland is a very welcoming country and people visit because of the open and warm welcome that they get from Irish people. There is a section of society, North and South of the border that will always continue to wallow in hatred and self pity for things that happened in a different century.
 

Blokesbloke

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The fundamental problem with Irish people is not that they defer to the British, but they fail to defer to their own, Irish, betters.

I have noticed this constantly.

You have some of the best people in the world who are leading you, or should be leading you.

But you let petty envy get in the way.

In any other country in the world people would recognise the genius of the Irish elite... Sean Gallagher would have been elected President by a landslide, Joan Burton would be Taoiseach (and would not have suffered attempts on her life when she was Tánaiste) and Ryan Tubridy and Miriam O'Callaghan would be afforded the proper respect they deserve as the superstars of RTÉ.

But no. The jealousy and begrudgery gets you every single time.

You just cannot accept that you do have betters, and you should do as they tell you and be grateful to them.

This is what holds you back.

I am sorry if the British had any hand in this attitude, but really you've been independent long enough now to have grown up.

I mean all of these people are Irish. You wanted independence, you wanted self-rule, you got it and you got some incredible people, but all you do is whinge and do them down.

This prevents them doing their jobs properly.

If you would just let them run things and stop being so obstructive and childish, you would be the best country in the world.
See?

Up for over an hour, and nary a single "like".

Begrudgery.
 


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