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North/South Catholic divide


FloatingVoterTralee

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The conventional arguments made in the Republic against a United Ireland are the inconvenience of integrating one million Protestants into Irish national institutions and the cost of maintaining British levels of subsidies to the Northern economy. But, it could also be argued, that 90 years of separation have created equally profound differences between Catholics North and South of the border, similar to the Ossi-Wessi gulf that persists in Germany. On the national question, Northerners have accused "Free Staters" of being "soft" since independence, being accused in turn of being obdurate hardliners. The drift in the Republic towards secular liberalism hasn't been matched in the Six Counties, where a greater degree of Catholic conservatism pervades both nationalist parties. These trends are particularly apparent in Ulster GAA, with clubs named after and commemorating hunger strikers, which the national organisation rightly steers well clear of, and also in opposition to rule changes. There are probably others that are more apparent, but unification would take decades to erase this gulf.
 

picador

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You appear to be conflating Catholocism with nationalism. How does this 'Catholic conservatism' manifest itself - lower divorce figures, opposition to contraception?
 

sparkey321

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I know I am going to regret getting involved in a thread here but.

I have never heard integrating 1 million protestants expressed as an issue with reunification.

Subsidies and support costs yes but that no.

How does naming GAA clubs after hunger strikers have anything to do with catholicism ? Either North or South ?

Your thread referees to a divide amongst catholics but your post contains nothing to so with catholicism ?

I'm confused.
 

dónal na geallaí

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Weird post,I'd agree with Picador.Most northern Catholics I meet are instinctively more leftwing than us.It manifest itself in little ways;they can't believe we still have to pay for school textbooks,for example.They take a comprehensive health service,free at the point of delivery,completely for granted.Of course,this itself may be a hidden barrier to unification,but I failto see where the conservative catholic ethos comes into play.

Btw,floating,isn't your local GAA club named for Austin Stack - who organised strikes and riots in Crumlin Rd prison before fighting against the treaty?
 

Cruimh

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The conventional arguments made in the Republic against a United Ireland are the inconvenience of integrating one million Protestants into Irish national institutions and the cost of maintaining British levels of subsidies to the Northern economy. But, it could also be argued, that 90 years of separation have created equally profound differences between Catholics North and South of the border, similar to the Ossi-Wessi gulf that persists in Germany. On the national question, Northerners have accused "Free Staters" of being "soft" since independence, being accused in turn of being obdurate hardliners. The drift in the Republic towards secular liberalism hasn't been matched in the Six Counties, where a greater degree of Catholic conservatism pervades both nationalist parties. These trends are particularly apparent in Ulster GAA, with clubs named after and commemorating hunger strikers, which the national organisation rightly steers well clear of, and also in opposition to rule changes. There are probably others that are more apparent, but unification would take decades to erase this gulf.
John McGahern made a point in an interview published in Studies Magazine in 2001 that Catholicism in the North seemed to lag behind Catholicism on his side of the border.
I live beside the border and I have a cousin who was a diocesan examiner and he tells me that to examine religious doctrine in the schools when you go 6-7 miles across the border, Catholicism is 40-50 years back in the North of Ireland. He was talking about 15 years ago.
 

Portstewart

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You only have to look at the threads in here and in the rest of the board to see the difference, most of our northern nationalist posters in this section seem hopelessly blinkered and out of touch in comparison, barely bothering to enter debate on issues with what they see as their fellow countrymen on anything that doesn't involve the British or Irish nationalism/republicanism. Northern Ireland is a place apart.
 

st333ve

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Is that why Criumh was just discussing an issue about the ROI president?

Dont know how I seen that as it wasnt in the NI section.
 

Portstewart

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Is that why Criumh was just discussing an issue about the ROI president?

Dont know how I seen that as it wasnt in the NI section.
Criumh posts in there more than most of the rest of you nordie nationalists. petunia

You are a great example of what I am saying st333ve, 95% of your posts are weird obsessional diatribes about the OO, while your average ROI person is on here posting about the economy etc.
 

Cruimh

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Criumh posts in there more than most of the rest of you nordie nationalists. petunia

You are a great example of what I am saying st333ve, 95% of your posts are weird obsessional diatribes about the OO, while your average ROI person is on here posting about the economy etc.
I don't know any nordie nationalists - or southern ones either - that talk about j-walking ;)

He's a yank!
 

Portstewart

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I don't know any nordie nationalists - or southern ones either - that talk about j-walking ;)

He's a yank!
Probably, he's an extremist at any rate compared to the vast majority of ROI people, so is pic, I don't think they've noticed. :eek:
 

ne0ica

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Unification would take decades to erase the divisions in Ireland but it would. Think how differently the Unionist community would interact with Nationalists if they didn't have an artificial partition to defend.
 

Cruimh

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Unification would take decades to erase the divisions in Ireland but it would. Think how differently the Unionist community would interact with Nationalists if they didn't have an artificial partition to defend.
This thread isn't about unionism .....

But it's worth pointing out that partition didn't cause the differences -
Nassau Senior described Ireland as two Countries in the 19th century.
 

Sync

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I agree with everyone that the OP is pretty much just creating a strawman then failing to tear that strawman down. The real reason we have against a united Ireland now is "Because the majority of the people in NI don't want to be in a United Ireland" It's what the vast majority of the island voted to recognise over a decade ago.

But there's an argument that we use that as a crutch. There's never discussion on a political or national level or in the media as to what we'd do if tomorrow, 65% of NI said "Gosh y'know we'd love to be in a united Ireland". There's huge logistical requirements involved in a unification, both financial and organisational.

Perhaps due to not wanting to appear presumptuous, perhaps because it's so long away before it can realistically be planned around, but it's a conversation we've never really had down here.
 

Sean O'Brian

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Unification would take decades to erase the divisions in Ireland but it would.
Is it necessary to 'erase the divisions'? Can't people just live together while being different? The whole levelling process of secular liberalism seems custom-designed for a place like Northern Ireland - if everybody agrees to give up their religious belief and distinctions the whole world can live as one.

One other thing: Whither multiculturalism (in NI and the ROI, not to mention the rest of Europe) if people of different cultures are a bad fit?
 

Border-Rat

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Is it necessary to 'erase the divisions'? Can't people just live together while being different? The whole levelling process of secular liberalism seems custom-designed for a place like Northern Ireland - if everybody agrees to give up their religious belief and distinctions the whole world can live as one.

One other thing: Whither multiculturalism (in NI and the ROI, not to mention the rest of Europe) if people of different cultures are a bad fit?
If we couldn't live together over the past 40 years whilst the more moral of both communities was protesting Nationality, then don't expect the other half to play nice for 30+ years post Unification. The only redeeming comparison in that regard is that they won't be able to cause the chaos the PIRA did without their handlers. I doubt the ARW/G2 would have much difficulty with a Loyalist terrorist campaign.
 

Portstewart

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This thread isn't about unionism .....

But it's worth pointing out that partition didn't cause the differences -
Nassau Senior described Ireland as two Countries in the 19th century.
True mate, republicans always want to spin partition as the cause of the division between the communities, whereas the fact is partition was a consequence of the divisions between the two communities.

Of course the division between the two communities doesn't really interest or motivate them, what motivates them is getting what they want.
 

Portstewart

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If we couldn't live together over the past 40 years whilst the more moral of both communities was protesting Nationality, then don't expect the other half to play nice for 30+ years post Unification. The only redeeming comparison in that regard is that they won't be able to cause the chaos the PIRA did without their handlers. I doubt the ARW/G2 would have much difficulty with a Loyalist terrorist campaign.
Is being good at terrorism some racial/genetic advantage amongst your lot then?

Or is it simply that Irish Catholics are more clever than Ulster Protestants in your view?
 

Cruimh

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B-R forgets that PIRA couldn't cause the same chaos today - 9/11 took the blinkers off the misguided yanks who aided and abetted them .

It's interesting that people seem to want to move the diiscussion away from the differences across the border between the RCs. It doesn't help the nationalist case that Ireland was homogenous before the protestant cuckoos landed in the nest ;)
 

Keith-M

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This thread isn't about unionism .....

But it's worth pointing out that partition didn't cause the differences -
Nassau Senior described Ireland as two Countries in the 19th century.

EXACTLY. The border didn't cause division. It was division that caused the border. That's a point that people with little grasp of history don't appreciate.
 
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Border-Rat

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Is being good at terrorism some racial/genetic advantage amongst your lot then?

Or is it simply that Irish Catholics are more clever than Ulster Protestants in your view?
The capabilities of the UVF/UDA during the troubles, with the assistance of one of the worlds most heavily funded intelligence organisations and military, paled in comparison to the PIRA which was left to its own devices. All I'm saying is that that doesn't bode well for a Loyalist campaign when they're stripped of MI5 assistance and the British military.

If they're useless under Brit guidance, then don't hold out any hope of an impressive unilateral campaign.


B-R forgets that PIRA couldn't cause the same chaos today - 9/11 took the blinkers off the misguided yanks who aided and abetted them .
If the Provos ended their ceasefire tommorow the Diaspora would be all over them. Its just a fact, I listen to Radio Free Eire occasionally and they're totally, utterly obsessed. Not that they'd need Boston to survive.
 
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