NPPR (non principal private residence) tax collection

barrym

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May 4, 2004
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224
Hi,

The legislation does not require the Dept to send any request for payment, presumably because in our ‘knowledge economy’ country there is no comprehensive database of house owners.

Living as I do in an area where there are a number of houses in foreign ownership I have been contacted by a number of people who know that I have spent most of my life living outside Ireland. In just one case, a French person who discovered by accident his ‘obligations’ and is not against the idea of paying, has discovered, that, despite having never been approached for payment, he owes the 2009 fee since 31.10 2009 and 5 times the ‘fine’ (€100) because he cannot ensure his payment arrives before 1.3.2010, so another month is added.

I am ashamed and appalled, as an Irish citizen, that our country exploits our friends and neighbours in such a fashion. When I approached Cork CoCo to finds out whether people in this French person’s situation could claim lack of knowledge as a basis for not paying the €100 fine, I was treated in a cavalier fashion, it was clearly indicated that foreigners should make themselves aware of their obligations and that ‘they’ (the staff of Cork CoCo ) were “just following the law”…… an easy excuse.

I simply do not appreciate how a tax of such nature can be applied in the present circumstances and fashion. The cost of collection will, by any measure, reduce the income significantly and the lack of data on house owners will ensure that a significant number of owners will not be traced.

As a Minister and a citizen Gormley should be ashamed to have been the originator of such a law. It is nothing more than a populist measure to garner the support of the anti-foreigner and those who feel owning a second property is not acceptable, despite the fact that many such properties provide much needed accommodation in the post boom lack of reasonable cost housing.

OK, so this may seem like a rant by a 'rich' person. I appreciate that 'johnny foreigner' is seen as an easy touch and anyway if is 'only' €200. However, a law which collects tax and does not require a calculation or a demand for payment by the authorities is an insidious
new method of money collection, which will, presumably, be re-used.

Bye, Barry
 


EvotingMachine0197

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Feb 17, 2006
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Well, I paid mine on time - just about. If it weren't for a billboard on Malahide Rd. I could easily have been late.
I think the payment compliance was very high, even though they had no idea how many were eligible - go figure ...

I don't know why they can't get the register from the PRTB anyway. That would be a good start. I would guess the majority of NPPRs are under tenancy, with the bulk of these registered with the PRTB.

From my experience, it is completely reasonable that a foreigner would not have been aware of the tax by the September date.
 

stonethrower

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Jan 2, 2006
Messages
276
This is a very valid point. I actually agree with the tax and pay it myself on one property. However I have serious issues with how it is being run. There were some ads and information, but hardly blanket. Of course in a perverse way it suits the local authority and the state for those eligible not to pay on time, because the penalties are so severe, I think it is €20 a month extra. So if you pay a year late, you are charged €440 instead of €200. That is disportionate in my view for those who are not trying to avoid, they are just unaware.

There should be an appeals system for people who can as your contacts could legitimately claim the information was not published in an area where they live, i.e. France. I would suggest they pay now to avoid further liabilities, appeal to the council in writing, that as you indicate from post is likely to go nowhere and then I would suggest that they appeal to the Ombudsmans office.

PM me also, I am interested in pursuing this issue in relation to where there are disputes over whether a property is a second home, such as house which has a roof but is not habitable.
 

asset test

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This is a very valid point. I actually agree with the tax and pay it myself on one property. However I have serious issues with how it is being run. There were some ads and information, but hardly blanket. Of course in a perverse way it suits the local authority and the state for those eligible not to pay on time, because the penalties are so severe, I think it is €20 a month extra. So if you pay a year late, you are charged €440 instead of €200. That is disportionate in my view for those who are not trying to avoid, they are just unaware.
I seriously doubt if they can establish who the non payers are. Data Protection issues arise, and access to sources of information would have to be legislated for, and I don't know if they were in the case of NPPR tax.

Sources of information would include the Land Registry, Stamp Duty (non owner occupiers rate), PRTB, ESB/Gas/Telephone/Broadband same name on two bills (of course a spouse or partner could register for the nppr I suppose, or the property could be rented),

We cannot even find out the price of houses sold in this country, so what chance to find this information out? Those who were compliant would always be compliant taxpayers IMV, but there is a cohort out there who will never pay, and seem to get away with it too.
 

hammer

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They could be understaffed and on a go slow. The non payers will not be identified anytime soon :)
 

netwhizkid

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May 10, 2007
Messages
33
I myself have not paid it on the two "2nd" homes I own and will not pay it either as I disagree with all forms of taxation. I am of the opinion that noone should pay it as the departments have neither the resources nor staff bright enough to pursue it. It is not like there is some secret database where they know who owns what and knowing the public service they'd make a balls of it anyway.

I laugh at the fools tripping over themselves to pay this, I guess with the amount and probable penalties I owe close to 2k but it will be a cold day in hell before I pay.
 

stonethrower

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276
I myself have not paid it on the two "2nd" homes I own and will not pay it either as I disagree with all forms of taxation. I am of the opinion that noone should pay it as the departments have neither the resources nor staff bright enough to pursue it. It is not like there is some secret database where they know who owns what and knowing the public service they'd make a balls of it anyway.

I laugh at the fools tripping over themselves to pay this, I guess with the amount and probable penalties I owe close to 2k but it will be a cold day in hell before I pay.
Hmmm...think you are being shortsighted, perhaps you will be vindicated, but you could also end up paying a lot more. The local authorities have been taking this slowly, drawing in the compliant people in the first phase. But I am sure they are hoping there will be a cohort of non-payers, because this will be a nice nest egg in the long run. Everyone knows that the €200 charge is the opening bid. The funny thing is that the Government were really worried about this when it was introduced in October 2008, they thought there would be war. Instead it was the medical card for the over 70s. The charge will go up in the next budget, perhaps to €500. As the fee goes up, there will be a big incentive for local authorities to collect it, like the TV licence they will send people from house to house. Also the next census is due in 2011. I was an enumerator in 2002 and we had very detailed maps, empty houses and rented houses were identified. They will be able to access this.

So you may escape in the short term, but in the long term they will get most people.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

I myself have not paid it on the two "2nd" homes I own and will not pay it either as I disagree with all forms of taxation. I am of the opinion that noone should pay it as the departments have neither the resources nor staff bright enough to pursue it. It is not like there is some secret database where they know who owns what and knowing the public service they'd make a balls of it anyway.

I laugh at the fools tripping over themselves to pay this, I guess with the amount and probable penalties I owe close to 2k but it will be a cold day in hell before I pay.
You might get away with dodging the tax for awhile - but how much do you reckon you're down to date on the investment on your "two second homes"? I laugh at the fools who spent all those years building their property portfolios:rolleyes:
 

hammer

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Get stuffed Sailor :)

The next census will have a secret database with the owner for a large percentage of properties .......................................NAMA

Occupied or Vacant on the Census night.....................VACANT
 

EvotingMachine0197

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Well, my solicitor would have made the stamp duty payments on my behalf, but I would hazard a guess my PPS number was on the payment. Anyone able to clarify this ?
 

CookieMonster

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Balls, if I'd know I didn't have to pay it I wouldn't have! :D
not true
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Get stuffed Sailor :)

The next census will have a secret database with the owner for a large percentage of properties .......................................NAMA

Occupied or Vacant on the Census night.....................VACANT
Hammer - are you just a little bit mad or are you insane?:D
 

hammer

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It was but the Government Department computers rarely speak to each other.

He will get caught but I presume there is an inability to pay clause :) as there is for small businesses and the minumum wage etc.............

Why wasn`t it means tested :)

I`m writing to the EU commission tomorrow for the crack to see if its legal to introduce a new tax without taking account of a persons ability to pay.

This €200 is not allowable against rent when calculating rental losses :(
 

Barnacle

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I myself have not paid it on the two "2nd" homes I own and will not pay it either as I disagree with all forms of taxation. I am of the opinion that noone should pay it as the departments have neither the resources nor staff bright enough to pursue it. It is not like there is some secret database where they know who owns what and knowing the public service they'd make a balls of it anyway.

I laugh at the fools tripping over themselves to pay this, I guess with the amount and probable penalties I owe close to 2k but it will be a cold day in hell before I pay.

The problem you could have here is that any unpaid liability is assigned as a Charge on the property for 12 year from the date the liability fell due. Once the liability is paid in a case where a Charge was made, a certificate is provided by the local authority which discharges the liability. There does not seem to be any provision to remove the Charge. This certificate would therefore have to be provided when the property is sold.

I would hazard a guess that the reason that no bills or reminders are sent out is because there is no central housing register and the councils themselves will only be compiling their own lists with the assistance of the PRTB Register, Land Registry, ESB records, tax records, etc. If they started to issue bills, then an argument could be made by the owners of properties who received no reminders that the fault was the Councils.
 

asset test

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Well, my solicitor would have made the stamp duty payments on my behalf, but I would hazard a guess my PPS number was on the payment. Anyone able to clarify this ?
Yes, that is correct. It would have been supplied to Revenue to pay the Stamp Duty bill. But I do not know if County Councils can access Revenue records. Very much doubt it to be honest.

As I said earlier, Data Protection is big in this country, so unless specific legislation is introduced to allow the sharing of information between bodies, then it cannot be shared.

Someone else might be able to correct me on that.
 

Barnacle

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Yes, that is correct. It would have been supplied to Revenue to pay the Stamp Duty bill. But I do not know if County Councils can access Revenue records. Very much doubt it to be honest.

As I said earlier, Data Protection is big in this country, so unless specific legislation is introduced to allow the sharing of information between bodies, then it cannot be shared.

Someone else might be able to correct me on that.
The Act provides that the Councils can request information from the Revenue Commissioners and visa versa.
 

Barnacle

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Sorry, should have gone a little but further than that. The Act provides that information can be obtained from three sources...

1) PRTB
2) ESB
3) Revenue Commissioners
 

hmmm

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I am ashamed and appalled, as an Irish citizen, that our country exploits our friends and neighbours in such a fashion. When I approached Cork CoCo to finds out whether people in this French person’s situation could claim lack of knowledge as a basis for not paying the €100 fine, I was treated in a cavalier fashion, it was clearly indicated that foreigners should make themselves aware of their obligations and that ‘they’ (the staff of Cork CoCo ) were “just following the law”…… an easy excuse.
If you own a property or conduct a business in a country, it is your responsibility to understand that nations tax law. If you need to, appoint a accountant to manage your affairs.
 

laidback

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A friend of mine paid the tax on time but the cheque never went thro his account. He followed up with the relevant county council and they knew nothing about it and said they would get on to NPPR - quango administering the scheme.

Today my friend received his cheque back with a letter saying they could not process it.

Why? Because he had not sent in the official form with the cheque! He had sent in a handwritten letter to NPPR with a signed cheque and the address of the property.

The official form asked for a lot of irrelevant information by the way.

How many other cheques did they not lodge for the same reason?

Would any business receiving a valid cheque that is due to it not lodge it, sit on it for nearly FIVE months, then return it with a long form!
 


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