Nurses refuse to remove bedblockers on moral grounds - but is not helping sick people immoral ?

cyberianpan

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HSE told nurses they could remove patients who had no clinical need - if there was acute shortage of beds - i.e. loads of people with significant clinical need waiting

HSE memo says patients can be removed from beds
The memo says that the Health Acts would allow a nurse to remove the patient from a bed into a discharge lounge ... the delay in such patients leaving their acute bed can have an adverse consequence on other patients who may need that bed on medical grounds.

INMO Director...He added: "This Organisation believes that it is immoral to suggest that a professional, who enjoys a trusting and caring relationship with a patient, should at any time use force to remove that patient from their bed against their will."
Issue is ...if they have no clinical need ...they are not in fact a patient any longer ... they are a squatter - the HSE is right - the nurse's union just likes slacking off with healthy patients in beds - whilst sick patients die

cyp
 


freewillie

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HSE told nurses they could remove patients who had no clinical need - if there was acute shortage of beds - i.e. loads of people with significant clinical need waiting

HSE memo says patients can be removed from beds


Issue is ...if they have no clinical need ...they are not in fact a patient any longer ... they are a squatter - the HSE is right - the nurse's union just likes slacking off with healthy patients in beds - whilst sick patients die

cyp
Leave them in the bed but wheel it out to the car park. That will sort the bed blockers out
 

Eire1976

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There is a lot of laziness in nursing nowadays.

They are getting orderlies to carry out a lot of tasks that they used to do.
 

Roll_On

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Perhaps if there were suitable places in nursing homes and assisted living communities there would not be 'bed blockers', an awful dehumanizing term for the most vulnerable people in our society. It's really vomit inducing how these people are referred to by the Irish public, and how nurses earning next to nothing for qrueling long hours are treated as part of the problem. Yet the layers of incompetent mis-managers at the HSE don't have any derogatory title bestowed on them.
 

Round tower

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Is there evidence of patients refusing to go home or into a nursing home, there is probably cases where relatives has refused to bring family members home from hospital.
May be that if a patient has been clinically accessed to be fit to be discharged and they or a relative refuses to bring them home, the cost of the bed doubles in cost.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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cYp, your spin on this story is pretty pathetic and inaccurate.

HSE issues a memo to hospitals, in which it says that nurses can use physical force to remove patients from certain beds. The memo says that those patients are trespassers who have no constitutional right to healthcare. Public patients only, not private patients of course.

The HSE has withdrawn the memo and the minister has strongly criticised it.

Also, your title is inaccurate, and mere opinion.

All told, off to the zoo.
 

Uganda

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HSE told nurses they could remove patients who had no clinical need - if there was acute shortage of beds - i.e. loads of people with significant clinical need waiting

HSE memo says patients can be removed from beds


Issue is ...if they have no clinical need ...they are not in fact a patient any longer ... they are a squatter - the HSE is right - the nurse's union just likes slacking off with healthy patients in beds - whilst sick patients die

cyp

I heard aine lawlor of rte interviewing Liam Doran about these. Each outdoing the other about this legal opinion in a document which has been with drawn.

It went ( something like this)

Lawlor (clucking indignantly): Liam how do you react to this outrageous document?

Doran (clucking empathically): It's outrageous Aine.

Lawlor: are you happy that your members are being forced to turf patients out of their beds?

Doran: not at all aine. Just because someone is discharged at 9.00 am and their daughter, or whoever, can't get there to take them home till 5.00 pm doesn't mean our hard working, over burdened members who deliver sterling service 24/7 should oblige some one to vacate their bed.

Etc etc etc

Instead of

Lawlor: Liam Doran, weren't you do chair of the working group to reduce A&E crowding. What have you done about bed blocking?

Doran: well erm our members are very hardworking.

Lawlor: yes, Liam Doran but why are you presiding as co chair over a system where a healthy somebody occupies a bed from 9 am until 5pm, denying some ill person a bed because their family can't be bothered to collect them?

Doran: we have consulted our members nationwide........

Lawlor: why don't you answer the question mr Doran

Doran : our members are very hard working and put upon........
 

im axeled

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HSE told nurses they could remove patients who had no clinical need - if there was acute shortage of beds - i.e. loads of people with significant clinical need waiting

HSE memo says patients can be removed from beds

Issue is ...if they have no clinical need ...they are not in fact a patient any longer ... they are a squatter - the HSE is right - the nurse's union just likes slacking off with healthy patients in beds - whilst sick patients die

cyp
then why are they not discharged by the medics
 

The Field Marshal

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Is there evidence of patients refusing to go home or into a nursing home, there is probably cases where relatives has refused to bring family members home from hospital.
May be that if a patient has been clinically accessed to be fit to be discharged and they or a relative refuses to bring them home, the cost of the bed doubles in cost.
If an infirm elderly person feels that by vacating a hospital bed they must return to an isolated environment where there is literally nobody to mind them it is understandable that they would be reluctant to vacate.

A solution would be to increase the levels of home care available to such people.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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I heard aine lawlor of rte interviewing Liam Doran about these. Each outdoing the other about this legal opinion in a document which has been with drawn.

It went ( something like this)

Lawlor (clucking indignantly): Liam how do you react to this outrageous document?

Doran (clucking empathically): It's outrageous Aine.

Lawlor: are you happy that your members are being forced to turf patients out of their beds?

Doran: not at all aine. Just because someone is discharged at 9.00 am and their daughter, or whoever, can't get there to take them home till 5.00 pm doesn't mean our hard working, over burdened members who deliver sterling service 24/7 should oblige some one to vacate their bed.

Etc etc etc

Instead of

Lawlor: Liam Doran, weren't you do chair of the working group to reduce A&E crowding. What have you done about bed blocking?

Doran: well erm our members are very hardworking.

Lawlor: yes, Liam Doran but why are you presiding as co chair over a system where a healthy somebody occupies a bed from 9 am until 5pm, denying some ill person a bed because their family can't be bothered to collect them?

Doran: we have consulted our members nationwide........

Lawlor: why don't you answer the question mr Doran

Doran : our members are very hard working and put upon........
One day when you're 90, signed out of an acute bed at 9am, but are still recovering and maybe have no family or no family nearby, and are fearful and vulnerable, and a nurse man-handles you out of the bed and dumps you somewhere, probably in a gown, and accuses you of being a trespasser, you'll applaud the nurse's cost cutting endeavours.
 

im axeled

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There is a lot of laziness in nursing nowadays.

They are getting orderlies to carry out a lot of tasks that they used to do.
keep blaming the nurses, i think the hse is 3,500 nurses less than in 2011, who is carrying the can for that
 

The Field Marshal

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One day when you're 90, signed out of an acute bed at 9am, but are still recovering and maybe have no family or no family nearby, and are fearful and vulnerable, and a nurse man-handles you out of the bed and dumps you somewhere, probably in a gown, and accuses you of being a trespasser, you'll applaud the nurse's cost cutting endeavours.
So who is responsible then to ensure that hospitals run efficiently and that convalescent patients are properly minded on discharge from hospital?

IINM time was when hospitals dedicated to convalescence alone once existed.

What happened to them?

Ireland was actually once upon a time a genuinely caring society.
 

cyberianpan

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cYp, your spin on this story is pretty pathetic and inaccurate.

HSE issues a memo to hospitals, in which it says that nurses can use physical force to remove patients from certain beds. The memo says that those patients are trespassers who have no constitutional right to healthcare. Public patients only, not private patients of course.

The HSE has withdrawn the memo and the minister has strongly criticised it.

Also, your title is inaccurate, and mere opinion.

All told, off to the zoo.
Refute it point by point ... I don't think you will be able to

Here's a helper - my title is in fact two part
(a) Nurses refuse to remove bedblockers on moral grounds - (b) but is not helping sick people immoral ?

(a) is self evidently true
(b) is a legitimate question

cyp
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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So who is responsible then to ensure that hospitals run efficiently and that convalescent patients are properly minded on discharge from hospital?

IINM time was when hospitals dedicated to convalescence alone once existed.

What happened to them?
Fnck knows, but nobody in a hospital bed should be described as a trespasser and subject to removal by force
 

The Field Marshal

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Fnck knows, but nobody in a hospital bed should be described as a trespasser and subject to removal by force
The problem remains that a very sick person should not be denied a bed because another cured patient well enough to leave hospital refuses to vacate that bed.

Convalescent hospitals were once the answer to such situations.

Home help now seems to be the only solution.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Refute it point by point ... I don't think you will be able to

Here's a helper - my title is in fact two part
(a) Nurses refuse to remove bedblockers on moral grounds - (b) but is not helping sick people immoral ?

(a) is self evidently true
(b) is a legitimate question

cyp

It is your opinion that they are bed-blockers.

Nurses have not refused to remove anybody, their spokesman said that they would not USE FORCE to remove patients.

It was said that it was immoral to suggest it, but that it would be a breach of the code of professional conduct of the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland, to do it.


Refuted.
 

The Field Marshal

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It is your opinion that they are bed-blockers.

Nurses have not refused to remove anybody, their spokesman said that they would not USE FORCE to remove patients.

It was said that it was immoral to suggest it, but that it would be a breach of the code of professional conduct of the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland, to do it.


Refuted.
The hospital security guard can do it.
End of.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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The problem remains that a very sick person should not be denied a bed because another cured patient well enough to leave hospital refuses to vacate that bed.

Convalescent hospitals were once the answer to such situations.

Home help now seems to be the only solution.

But it is ok for a non-sick private patient to stay in the bed, while a sick patient waits.


More beds is another solution. But yes, greater home help is crucial
 

SeanieFitz

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Fnck knows, but nobody in a hospital bed should be described as a trespasser and subject to removal by force
I am waiting for Cyp to suggest that the "bedblockers" should be shot

Awful term "bedblocker", without knowing the circumstances of the patient, to demean them by calling them a "bedblocker"

this country is nuts. Over the past 7 years we have trained 1,500 nurses per annum and only 600 remained in the Irish public health system. The HSE ran a campaign to encourage nurses who emigrated to return to HSE (Bring Them Home campaign)where they hoped to get 800 to return. 88 came back and over 40 of them have left again

However it is all the nurses fault, now where is that humane killer for Cyp
 

loner

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There are a number of questions here that need to be answered---
1--who in the HSE sought this legal opinion and how much did it cost
2--why would nurses be advised on this course of action---would it not be a matter for hospital management
3--who sent out this disgusting circular and who authorised this action


It is time that people in the HSE who engage in codology of this nature are named
 


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