Occupational licencing prevents professional scientists, mathematicians and maths oriented engineers from teaching in their specialties

Patslatt1

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Occupational licencing prevents professional scientists, mathematicians and maths oriented engineers from teaching in their specialties

Given the shortage of science and maths teachers, the Department of Education and professional teaching associations should reform occupational licencing rules that make it difficult for professionals with significant work experience in the sciences, mathematics and maths oriented engineering specialties to become recognised as teaching specialists. Those professionals shouldn't have to spend years acquiring academic qualifications similar to those they have already.

Instead of relying on bureaucratic,rigid occupational licencing rules,the teaching profession should have panels of experts who research the CVs of the professionals and use their judgement to determine what additional subject areas if any they need to study. As for engineers, there is a wide range of mathematical skills depending on the job, with engineers in some fields such as electronics claiming to be better at maths than mathematicians.

Of course, those professions could simply acquire teaching diplomas and expect to be appointed to maths or science teaching jobs given the shortages of those teaching specialties. However, without a recognised status as a specialist teacher, their position could be vulnerable to replacement by teachers with formal specialist qualifications.
 


The_SR

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Pats lowering standards thought of the day.
 

Mercurial

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What evidence is there that there's a shortage of science and maths teachers?
 

Analyzer

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Pats lowering standards thought of the day.
Maybe Pat should be doing like you ? watching a dumbing down device in the corner....focussed on grown ups chasing a plastic ball around a field in a childish, and utterly meaningless pursuit....

[video=youtube;I3uhTzs9be8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uhTzs9be8[/video]
 

Patslatt1

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What evidence is there that there's a shortage of science and maths teachers?
There are lots of media stories about this, claiming that high private sector salaries in the IT industry make it diffiult to attract mathematicians to teaching.
 

Analyzer

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Given the shortage of science and maths teachers, the Department of Education and professional teaching associations should reform occupational licencing rules that make it difficult for professionals with significant work experience in the sciences, mathematics and maths oriented engineering specialties to become recognised as teaching specialists. Those professionals shouldn't have to spend years acquiring academic qualifications similar to those they have already.

Instead of relying on bureaucratic,rigid occupational licencing rules,the teaching profession should have panels of experts who research the CVs of the professionals and use their judgement to determine what additional subject areas if any they need to study. As for engineers, there is a wide range of mathematical skills depending on the job, with engineers in some fields such as electronics claiming to be better at maths than mathematicians.

Of course, those professions could simply acquire teaching diplomas and expect to be appointed to maths or science teaching jobs given the shortages of those teaching specialties. However, without a recognised status as a specialist teacher, their position could be vulnerable to replacement by teachers with formal specialist qualifications.
I am surprised that there are no technology based approaches that are circumventing the DoE, becomming popular.

Maybe the broadband problem is at the core of this ?

Or the fact that both parents are usually working.
 

The_SR

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Judgements of a panel would raise standards by easing entry to maths and science teaching for technical professionals.
A panel making it easier for those without qualifications in a field to enter it raises standards? Go to bed pat.
 

The_SR

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There are lots of media stories about this, claiming that high private sector salaries in the IT industry make it diffiult to attract mathematicians to teaching.
Shouldn't be hard to find some then.
 

ard san aer

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Judgements of a panel would raise standards by easing entry to maths and science teaching for technical professionals.
What evidence have you to suggest that a "technical professional" has any ability (or inclination) to teach?? I can drive a car - but that doesn't mean I would be a good driving instructor....
 

making waves

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This is how the Teaching Council operates -

One of my offspring has a first class honours degree in Maths, has a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, has worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and gives grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching for qualified teachers who do not have an undergraduate qualification in Maths (science and business teachers for example).

This particular offspring recently contacted the Teaching Council to ask about completing a Professional Masters Degree in Secondary Teaching to teach Maths. The Teaching Council responded that the qualifications required upgrading with 3 five-credit modules in foundation geometry, algebra and calculus. No problem - my offspring could do these while completing the Teaching Masters. No you can't came the reply - despite the fact that you have a first class honours degree in Maths, have a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, have worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and give grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching - you must complete these minor foundation modules BEFORE you will be allowed apply for the Professional Masters in Education.

My offspring replied with a polite - get stuffed.
 

Patslatt1

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A panel making it easier for those without qualifications in a field to enter it raises standards? Go to bed pat.
You have a bureaucratic mentality. The time wasting perfectionism of occupational licencing doesn't occur to you. People with ACTUAL professional experience in maths and science would raise standards, complementing those with purely academic qualifications.
 

The_SR

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You have a bureaucratic mentality. The time wasting perfectionism of occupational licencing doesn't occur to you. People with ACTUAL professional experience in maths and science would raise standards, complementing those with purely academic qualifications.
Would.... Not could. Would. At least you have confidence.

A's has been said, having experience in something does not mean you would be a good teacher
 

Patslatt1

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What evidence have you to suggest that a "technical professional" has any ability (or inclination) to teach?? I can drive a car - but that doesn't mean I would be a good driving instructor....
The fact that they apply for a teaching job after years of professional experience is evidence they probably can teach. It takes courage to make a career move to a very different profession.
 

The_SR

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The fact that they apply for a teaching job after years of professional experience is evidence they probably can teach. It takes courage to make a career move to a very different profession.
Probably can...

You are pointedly ignoring that there are two aspects to teaching. An understanding of the subject is of course one. But knowing how to teach - lesson plans, child protection etc is another. You reckon that can be skipped because someone worked in a plant making microchips?
 
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Patslatt1

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This is how the Teaching Council operates -

One of my offspring has a first class honours degree in Maths, has a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, has worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and gives grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching for qualified teachers who do not have an undergraduate qualification in Maths (science and business teachers for example).

This particular offspring recently contacted the Teaching Council to ask about completing a Professional Masters Degree in Secondary Teaching to teach Maths. The Teaching Council responded that the qualifications required upgrading with 3 five-credit modules in foundation geometry, algebra and calculus. No problem - my offspring could do these while completing the Teaching Masters. No you can't came the reply - despite the fact that you have a first class honours degree in Maths, have a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, have worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and give grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching - you must complete these minor foundation modules BEFORE you will be allowed apply for the Professional Masters in Education.

My offspring replied with a polite - get stuffed.
The Teacing Council should be sacked for such extremely narrow minded adherence to bureaucracy.Why are they so narrow minded? This is unlikely to be an isolated incident. You should bring this to the attention of the Minister of Education,Richard Bruton.
 

Ardillaun

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This is how the Teaching Council operates -

One of my offspring has a first class honours degree in Maths, has a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, has worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and gives grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching for qualified teachers who do not have an undergraduate qualification in Maths (science and business teachers for example).

This particular offspring recently contacted the Teaching Council to ask about completing a Professional Masters Degree in Secondary Teaching to teach Maths. The Teaching Council responded that the qualifications required upgrading with 3 five-credit modules in foundation geometry, algebra and calculus. No problem - my offspring could do these while completing the Teaching Masters. No you can't came the reply - despite the fact that you have a first class honours degree in Maths, have a first class honours masters degree in Statistics, have worked for three years in a university running the data programming and analysis for research projects and give grinds to qualified teachers who are completing the Professional Diploma in Mathematics for Teaching - you must complete these minor foundation modules BEFORE you will be allowed apply for the Professional Masters in Education.

My offspring replied with a polite - get stuffed.
You’d think the main issue to be tested would be managing the class, i.e. what not to say and how to cope with bad behaviour esp. of the disruptive variety etc. Anything academic where the approach was too technical could easily be judged by results.
 

Dame_Enda

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I support this. The current situation resembles the guilds of pre Revolutionary France where the professionals excluded competition.
 

APettigrew92

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You’d think the main issue to be tested would be managing the class, i.e. what not to say and how to cope with bad behaviour esp. of the disruptive variety etc. Anything academic where the approach was too technical could easily be judged by results.
Poorly-behaved students in my experience is caused by a poorly maintained institutional power - that is to say, Principal/Teacher and Teacher/Parent/Principal relationships. The repercussions for some students are simply not followed through with on some level; in my experience, I have seen students show up to class and receive notes in their journals for poor behaviour. Upon investigating the journal, it turned out that the student had never had a single one of their dozen notes signed. Nor even checked for homework. I was informed that it was pointless to call home as the parents would hang up straight away.

That's an extreme case, but I think many teachers here will have noticed a complete absence of parental authority with regard to either restless or disruptive students.

Poorly behaving students - to the level of active and persistent class disruption - are surprisingly rare. It is really a case of maybe 1 or 2 per class, but the net effect of having one ridiculously out of order student is that they form, as the Simpsons jokingly pointed out, a "cone of ignorance" which drags otherwise behaving students into the circle of behaving badly. Once the authority of a given teacher has been whittled away, the class can essentially be lost as a functioning unit.

The biggest complaint I've heard from my French colleagues, both instructors and teachers, is that the DoE over here has failed them and essentially placed the student on a pedestal while teachers are at the mercy of management, the students and the parents.

The admission example given by the poster above is emblematic of a pig-headed obstinancy to admissions. Baffling in this day and age.

The OPs suggestion is bonkers altogether.
 

making waves

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I support this. The current situation resembles the guilds of pre Revolutionary France where the professionals excluded competition.
Let's be clear about something - the view majority of teachers view the Teaching Council as a bureaucratic structure designed by the government to put obstacles in the way of progress in education and undermine the teaching profession. They constantly change the goalposts, constantly alter their rules and the rules that apply for teachers, constantly change the criteria for NQTs and the courses student teachers follow (including changing what subjects they are entitled to teach when the student teachers are nearly finished their course).
 


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