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sgtharper

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You have twisted what he said, and you are accrediting a comment made by one to the other, in a different interview, in a different time-span, under different circumstances. The date of the Breen interview, 1967, is a bit of a giveaway, and Republicans were committed to a political path at that point in time. The Barry interview and comments are post-1969.
I've twisted nothing, he was making a prediction:
"while England occupied and had military personnel in Ireland there would NEVER be peace"
I simply pointed out that he got it wrong.
 

sgtharper

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sgtharper

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Right so Tom Barry's prediction has not been proven to be false, has it?
Yes it has, by any objective reading of the current situation.

Criminals, like the poor, will always be with us.
 

Speedfreak

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They didn’t really ‘spontaneously emerge’. The Hardline, Stalinist and Fenian factions were always present in the movement.

These factions nearly split in 1968, but the Ard Fheis managed to restrain them. But the British had begun to really fear the politicisation of the IRA, and so they got ultra-loyalists within the RUC to aggravate the IRA hardliners, through initiating the 1969 Belfast pogrom. It was essentially a ‘dirty tricks’ campaign by them.

The IRA had been moving toward a a democratically disciplined non-sectarian political movement reflecting the interests of the working people as a whole. Whereas the British it turned out actually desired a military campaign which could be contained, with the working people of the North divided on sectarian lines, thus perpetuating their rule.

No one half intelligent supported the ultra sectarian ‘provos’. Only the most blood-thirsty half-witted cretins supported their despicable bombing campaigns, and their going so far beyond using force in defence and justified retaliation, and their thinking so little of sacrificing innocent civilians to "the cause" etc.
 

Boy M5

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You have twisted what he said, and you are accrediting a comment made by one to the other, in a different interview, in a different time-span, under different circumstances. The date of the Breen interview, 1967, is a bit of a giveaway, and Republicans were committed to a political path at that point in time. The Barry interview and comments are post-1969.
Put him on ignore
 

NMunsterman

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Yes it has, by any objective reading of the current situation.

Criminals, like the poor, will always be with us.
Say the Brit errand-boy for the British Establishment - and proud apologist - for British colonialism, militarism, terror and murder carried out over centuries in Ireland.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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Well he was wrong then wasn't he? As we can all see.

Dan Breen in 1967 still looked and sounded as a committed hawk about Britain's occupation of the island.
Yes, in total denial of reality as was usual with his kind. The existence of over a million Unionists who wanted nothing to do with a united Ireland or a republic was simply too difficult for them to understand or even contemplate.
Pyschopathic old loon, a pity he was ever born.
I've twisted nothing, he was making a prediction:
I simply pointed out that he got it wrong.
Yes you did, and no you didn’t, and you are moving the goal posts now, and quoting an observation Barry made in 1973, 6 years after the Breen interview, by which stage the administration in London was firmly in control of the upper echeleons of what became the *Combined Loyalist Military Command*, to suit your amatuer revisionist interpretation of history.

He said that his ONLY regret about his time as a Republican activist was that he didn't send MORE British soldiers back to their country in boxes.
Breen couldn’t possibly be talking about the Provisional IRA in 1967, because they didn’t come into existence until 1969.

In 1916 there was a battle in County Westmeath and the Republicans who fought in that battle went on to fight in the Tan war and then on the Anti-Treaty Republican side in the civil war.. Believe it or not, 78 years later, in 1994, the grand children of that family were targeted for a raid by what were then called the Free Staters..
A niece of The O'Rahilly, who was killed in action outside the GPO itself in 1916 and who was active in Cumann na mBan from 1919 up as far as the 1950s, and at one point in time was the vice-president of that organisation lived in South County Dublin. Her home at Aylesbury Road, Ballsbridge, was said to have been a centre of Republican activity and it was there in 1922 that Ernie O'Malley was wounded and captured after a shoot out with Free State troops. Anyone who knows anything about Republican history would at least have heard of O'Malley, and perhaps be aware that he wrote On Another Mans Wound, which is considered to be one of the all time greats of Republican literature. The O'Rahillys niece Sighle Uí Dhonnachdha(maiden name Humphries) married Domhnall Ó Donnachdha of the Dublin IRA in the 1930s who was also the editor of An Phoblacht for a period of time. Uí Dhonnachdha was also involved in Saor Éire and the Republican Congress in the 1930s, and was also a fluent Irish speaker, who is said to have refused to speak English to anyone who she knew could speak as Gaeilge. Uinseann MacEoin who wrote ''The IRA in the Twilight years'' interviewed her for ''Survivors'' in 1980, where she compared the modern day IRA and the struggle to the Black & Tan period in the south. Over 60 years after the Rising and the Tans had come and gone, people like that saw no difference in the British occupation of the six counties. She remained a friend and a supporter of Republican prisoners until the day she died.
What Humphries actually said was that the Black & Tans were nothing in comparison to the Loyalist Death Squads..



'Come on he cried come show your hand
You have boasted for so long
That you would crush my lovely land
With your armies great and strong'

1971, when according to the British soldiers interviewed in the BBC documentary, Panorama: Britain's Secret Terror Force (2013), in that link, they were sent to Ireland to target civilians, in order to instigate a Sectarian conflict, and to cause a Civil War between Republicans.

"The complex intelligence machinery in Northern Ireland was grown out of the history of security emergencies and the different, complementary and supportive roles played in them over the years by the intelligence agencies and security forces." - - Security Service, The Intelligence Organisation in Northern Ireland, "Volume 1 Chapter 3: Intelligence structures Report of the Patrick Finucane Review", (December 2012)

"We were not there to act like an army unit, we were there to act like a terror group". - BBC Panorama, Britains Secret Terror Force, (November, 2013), Soldier F

Soldier H said "We operated initially with them thinking that we were the UVF", to which Soldier F added: "We wanted to cause confusion". Another said that their role was "to draw out the IRA and to minimise their activities". An MRF member who made a statement in 1978 opined that the unit's role was one of "repression through fear, terror and violence". He said his section shot at least 20 people.

"We opened fire at any small group in hard areas - armed or not - it didn't matter. We targeted specific groups that were always up to no good. These types were sympathisers and supporters, assisting the IRA movement. As far as we were concerned they were guilty by association and party to terrorist activities, leaving themselves wide open to the ultimate punishment from us".

Military Reaction Force

The Military Reaction Force, Military Reconnaissance Force or Mobile Reconnaissance Force (MRF) was a covert intelligence-gathering and counter-insurgency unit of the British Army active in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, a former member described it as a "legalised death squad". The unit was formed during the summer of 1971 and operated until late 1972 or early 1973. MRF teams operated in plain-clothes and civilian vehicles, equipped with pistols and submachine guns. They were tasked with tracking down and arresting, or killing, members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

The MRF was succeeded by the Special Reconnaissance Unit (SRU; or 14 Intelligence Company) and, later, by the Force Research Unit (FRU).

Attacks on civilians

In 1972, MRF teams carried out a number of drive-by shootings in Catholic and Irish nationalist areas of Belfast, some of which were attributed to Ulster loyalist paramilitaries. At least fifteen civilians were shot. MRF members have affirmed the unit's involvement in most of these attacks. There are also allegations that the unit helped loyalists to carry out attacks.

McGurk's Bar bombing

On 4 December 1971, the loyalist Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) detonated a time bomb at the door of McGurk's public house in Belfast. The pub was frequented by Irish Catholics/nationalists. The explosion caused the building to collapse, killing fifteen Catholic civilians and wounding seventeen more. It was the deadliest attack in Belfast during the Troubles. The book Killing For Britain (2009), written by former UVF member 'John Black', claims that the MRF organized the bombing and helped the bombers get in and out of the area.

One of the bombers—Robert Campbell—said that their original target had been The Gem, a nearby pub that was allegedly linked to the Official IRA. It is claimed the MRF plan was to help the UVF bomb The Gem, and then blame the bombing on the Provisional IRA. This would start a feud between the two IRA factions, diverting them from their fight against the security forces and draining their support.

Whiterock Road shooting

On 15 April 1972, brothers Gerry and John Conway—both Catholic civilians—were walking along Whiterock Road to catch a bus. As they passed St Thomas's School, a car stopped, and three men leapt out and began shooting at them with pistols. The brothers ran, but both were shot and wounded. Witnesses said one of the gunmen returned to the car and spoke into a handset radio. Shortly afterward two armoured personnel carriers arrived, and there was a conversation between the uniformed and the plainclothes soldiers. The British Army told journalists that a patrol had encountered two wanted men, that one had fired at the patrol, and that the patrol returned fire. In a 1978 interview, a former MRF member claimed he had been one of the gunmen. He confirmed that the brothers were unarmed but claimed his patrol had mistaken the brothers for two IRA men whom the MRF were ordered to "shoot on sight". - Murray, Raymond - The SAS in Ireland, Mercier Press, 1990.

Andersonstown shootings

On 12 May 1972, the British government announced there would be no disciplinary action against the soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday. That night, MRF teams shot seven Catholic civilians in the Andersonstown area.

An MRF team in an unmarked car approached a checkpoint manned by members of the Catholic Ex-Servicemen's Association (CESA) at the entrance to Riverdale Park South.

The CESA was an unarmed vigilante organization set up to protect Catholic areas. The car stopped, and then reversed. One of the MRF men opened fire from the car with a sub-machine gun, killing Catholic civilian Patrick McVeigh (44) and wounding four others. The car continued on, turned, and then drove past the scene of the shooting. All of the men were local residents and McVeigh, who was shot through the back, had stopped to chat to the CESA members as he walked home. He was a married father of six children. The British Army told journalists that gunmen in a passing car had fired indiscriminately at civilians and called it an "apparently motiveless crime". The car had come from a Protestant area and had returned the same way. This, together with the British Army statement, implied that loyalists were responsible.

An inquest into the attack was held in December 1972, where it was admitted that the car's occupants were soldiers belonging to an undercover unit known as the MRF. An MRF member stated in 1978 that the British Army's intention was to make it look like a loyalist attack, thus provoking sectarian conflict and "taking the heat off the Army".

Minutes before the shooting at the checkpoint, two other Catholic civilians had been shot nearby by another MRF team. The two young men—Aidan McAloon and Eugene Devlin—had gotten a taxi home from a disco and were dropped off at Slievegallion Drive. As they began walking along the street, in the direction of a vigilante barricade, the MRF team opened fire on them from an unmarked car. The MRF team told the Royal Military Police that they had shot a man who was firing a rifle. Witnesses said there was no gunman on the street, and police forensics experts found no evidence that McAloon or Devlin had fired weapons.

Two weeks later, on 27 May, Catholic civilian Gerard Duddy (20) was killed in a drive-by shooting at the same spot where Patrick McVeigh was killed. His death was blamed on loyalists. - Taylor, Peter (2001) - Brits: The War Against the IRA, Bloomsbury Publishing.

Killing of Jean Smith

On the night of 9 June 1972, Catholic civilian Jean Smith (or Smyth) was shot dead on the Glen Road. Jean was a 24-year-old mother of one. She was shot while sitting in the passenger seat of a car at the Glen Road bus terminus. As her male companion turned the car, he heard what he thought was a tyre bursting. When he got out to check, the car was hit by a burst of automatic gunfire. Smith was shot in the head and died shortly afterward. Her companion stopped a passing taxi and asked the driver to take her to hospital. However, the taxi was then stopped by police and diverted to Andersonstown RUC base, where they were held for several hours.

The security forces blamed the killing on the IRA. In October 1973, however, the Belfast Telegraph published an article suggesting that Smith could have been shot by the MRF. Documents uncovered from the British National Archives reveal that the MRF fired shots in the area that night. They claim to have fired at two gunmen and hit one of them. The Belfast Telegraph article also suggested that Smith could have been shot by the IRA, who fired on the car thinking it was carrying MRF members. The IRA deny this and claim that it was not in the area at the time of the shooting.

Two weeks after Smith's killing, the MRF fired on a car at the same spot, wounding four people.

Glen Road shooting

On 22 June 1972, the Provisional IRA announced that it would begin a ceasefire in four days, as a prelude to secret talks with the British Government. That afternoon, MRF members in an unmarked car shot and wounded three Catholic men standing by a car at Glen Road bus terminus. A man in a nearby house was also wounded by the gunfire. Shortly afterward, the MRF unit's car was stopped by the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the occupants were arrested. Inside the car was a Thompson sub-machine gun, "for years the IRA's favourite weapon". One of the MRF members—Clive Graham Williams—was charged with attempted murder. He told the court that two of the men had been armed, and one had fired at the MRF car. He claimed he was returning fire. Witnesses said that none of the civilians were armed, and that it was an unprovoked attack. Police forensics experts found no evidence that the civilians had fired weapons. However, key witnesses were not called to give evidence in person, and Williams was acquitted on 26 June 1973. He was later promoted and awarded the Military Medal for bravery. - Leo Telling - Britain's Secret Terror Force, BBC Panorama (21 November 2013)

St James's Crescent shooting

On the night of 27 September 1972, the MRF shot dead Catholic civilian Daniel Rooney and wounded his friend Brendan Brennan. They were shot from a passing car while standing on a street corner at St James's Crescent, in the Falls district. The British Army told journalists that the two men fired at an undercover patrol and that the patrol returned fire. It further claimed that the two men were IRA members. The IRA, the men's families, and residents of the area denied this, and Rooney's name has never appeared on a republican roll of honour. An inquest was held in December 1973. The court was told that forensic tests on the men's hands and clothing found no firearms residue. The six soldiers involved repeated the British Army's claim, but they did not appear at the inquest. Their statements were read by a police officer and they were referred to by initials. In 2013, former MRF member 'Simon Cursey' again claimed that they were returning fire, but said that only one of the men was armed. - David McKittrick - Lost Lives: The Stories of the Men, Women and Children who Died as a Result of the Northern Ireland Troubles. Random House, (2001; p.269)

The Belfast Brigade of Óglaigh na hÉireann launched an attack an the MRF which blew its cover, and led to it’s disbandment and replacement by 14 Intelligence Company.

Special Reconnaissance Unit

The Special Reconnaissance Unit, also known as the 14 Field Security and Intelligence Company (internally "The Det") was a part of the British Army Intelligence Corps involved in plain-clothes operations in Northern Ireland from the 1970s onwards.

The unit conducted undercover surveillance operations against suspected members of Irish republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. Its troops were recruited from line battalions and trained in an eight-week course by the Special Air Service (SAS). An initial deployment of 120 men took place in November 1972.

Collusion accusations

14 Intelligence was accused of acting in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries by former intelligence personnel Fred Holroyd and Colin Wallace in regards to the death of senior Provisional Irish Republican Army member John Francis Green, the Miami Showband killings and the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. - Fred Holroyd - War Without Honour (1989); Dr Huw Bennett - The reluctant pupil? Britain’s army and learning in counter-insurgency, Royal United Services Institute, (11 October 2009); Mark Urban - Big Boys' Rules: The SAS and the Secret Struggle Against the IRA - London: Faber and Faber (1992)

"My unit conspired in the murder of civilians in Ireland" - Sunday Herald, 27 August 2001 – FRU, Neil Mackey (19 November 2000).

Force Research Unit

The Force Research Unit (FRU) is a covert military intelligence unit of the British Army part of the Intelligence Corps. It was established in 1982 during the Troubles to obtain intelligence from secretly penetrating terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland by recruiting and running agents and informants.

It worked alongside existing intelligence agencies the Royal Ulster Constabulary Special Branch and MI5. In 1988, the All-Source Intelligence Cell was formed to improve the sharing of intelligence between the FRU, Special Branch and MI5.

The FRU was renamed to the Joint Support Group (JSG) following the Stevens Inquiry into allegations of collusion between the security forces and Protestant paramilitary groups. This has been confirmed by some former members of the unit. From 1987 to 1991, it was commanded by Gordon Kerr. - "Stevens Inquiry: Key people"; BBC News. 17 April 2003. -BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Stevens Inquiry: Key people
 

NMunsterman

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Messages
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Yes you did, and no you didn’t, and you are moving the goal posts now, and quoting an observation Barry made in 1973, 6 years after the Breen interview, by which stage the administration in London was firmly in control of the upper echeleons of what became the *Combined Loyalist Military Command*, to suit your amatuer revisionist interpretation of history.



Breen couldn’t possibly be talking about the Provisional IRA in 1967, because they didn’t come into existence until 1969.





What Humphries actually said was that the Black & Tans were nothing in comparison to the Loyalist Death Squads..



'Come on he cried come show your hand
You have boasted for so long
That you would crush my lovely land
With your armies great and strong'
You're wasting your time with Harper - he even denies the existence of British state-run death squads in the North - the very same death squads that have been well documented.

He is pure vermin.
 

Bleu Poppy

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As will west-brit lickspittles it seems.
When logic fails, or there are no reasoned cogent rebuttals to points made, the PShinners (The 'P' is silent, but for how long?) resort to ad hominem attacks and clichéd personal attacks.
 

Bleu Poppy

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They didn’t really ‘spontaneously emerge’. The Hardline, Stalinist and Fenian factions were always present in the movement.

These factions nearly split in 1968, but the Ard Fheis managed to restrain them. But the British had begun to really fear the politicisation of the IRA, and so they got ultra-loyalists within the RUC to aggravate the IRA hardliners, through initiating the 1969 Belfast pogrom. It was essentially a ‘dirty tricks’ campaign by them.

The IRA had been moving toward a a democratically disciplined non-sectarian political movement reflecting the interests of the working people as a whole. Whereas the British it turned out actually desired a military campaign which could be contained, with the working people of the North divided on sectarian lines, thus perpetuating their rule.

No one half intelligent supported the ultra sectarian ‘provos’. Only the most blood-thirsty half-witted cretins supported their despicable bombing campaigns, and their going so far beyond using force in defence and justified retaliation, and their thinking so little of sacrificing innocent civilians to "the cause" etc.
More re-writes of history. Not a syllable of reference to the peaceful N.I. Civil Rights Movement which was responsible for what you are now claiming as S.F./I.R.A. actions.

But the truth will out..... This is the period that culminated in the 'I Ran Away' moniker for ye.
 

parentheses

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More re-writes of history. [n]Not a syllable of reference to the peaceful N.I. Civil Rights Movement which was responsible for what you are now claiming as S.F./I.R.A. actions.[/b]

But the truth will out..... This is the period that culminated in the 'I Ran Away' moniker for ye.
You mean the civil rights movement which was batoned off the streets and in 1972 was shot in the streets of Derry?
 

cricket

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You mean the civil rights movement which was batoned off the streets and in 1972 was shot in the streets of Derry?
Even at that, the civil rights movement did not advocate violence and should not be used as cover by the provos for their essentially sectarian campaign.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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he was an intelligence officer in the staters during the emergency as well. Clearly not an abstentionist.

publicly supported the first 1980 hunger strike. He died that year.

Provo's lasted in the field for over two decades. They sustained man power, weapons supply, and money. They had to have support. It would be wrong to super impose modern SF support onto the provos and presume that was it. Given the political map of the 26 counties at the time was basically two and a bit parties it might be reasonable to presume that some people who supported the state through those two and a bit parties were also giving support to the provos and not seeing a contradiction in it.

Officers of the 26th Batallion, Irish Army, made up of former Dublin Brigade/Old IRA men at the beginning of WW-II

Joining ‘for the boots’

Problems soon manifested themselves that would plague the FCA throughout its existence, primarily the ‘establishment’ strength against actual strength. Given the LDF’s success, an FCA establishment of 60,000 was not thought unrealistic. This would mainly consist of 99 infantry battalions, three artillery regiments and smaller support units such as engineering and signals. FCA battalions were commanded entirely by FCA officers, with some military expertise provided by Old IRA and LDF veterans. The actual strength of the FCA at its inception was 37,323, the highest point for the force, from which it would continually decline.

Another problem was summed up by one FCA officer, who noted:

‘Some people joined “for the boots”, and having received same were not seen again, while others found out after some time in uniform that drilling and discipline generally were not to their liking. These latter categories, classified as “non-effectives”, were struck off the records subsequently as being “of no further use to the service”.’

The avoidance of a ‘non-effective’ classification required only an accumulated 48 hours of annual attendance at evening parades and weekend camps. There was no doubting the commitment of the FCA’s more enthusiastic members, who thought nothing of walking or cycling long distances over dark country roads to attend training sessions. Many were denied even a building to train in by public apathy.

During the Emergency, grateful local communities had provided the LDF with schools and community halls in which to train—facilities withdrawn in many cases after 1945. Thereafter some FCA units were obliged to meet at rain-soaked crossroads and roadsides. Of the 400 men of the Abbeyleix Battalion, it was estimated that a third had no building for training, although one unit obtained a bank loan to buy themselves a Nissen hut. In Meath public apathy towards the FCA bordered on hostility, with Navan (population over 4,000) boasting an FCA membership of less than ten.

Each FCA man was issued with a bolt-action Lee-Enfield rifle (in rural units it was standard practice to keep the rifle at home, as with many other European reserve forces). The uniform was the same coarse ‘bullswool’ pattern issued to the regular army, including sturdy hobnailed boots and a popular heavy greatcoat. These were issued every three years, the same uniform being used for both tactical training and for parades.

To an extent the FCA was something of a social movement, enabling young Irishmen to make friends from greatly different backgrounds and to learn useful skills such as first aid and automotive skills. Most acquired discipline and self-confidence, while some were able to avail of leadership training. The FCA provided an outlet for many unemployed people who were able to devote their talents and energies to a public body. In its early days the force enjoyed a high public profile, participating in annual parades on Easter Monday and St Patrick’s Day, and providing frequent guards of honour for dignitaries.

Integration and rationalisation

In 1950 the FCA’s effective strength was 25,776, declining to 21,784 in 1951. This was a symptom of heavy emigration, which devastated the rural battalions. The Old IRA veterans retired but a family tradition was evolving, with sons following their fathers’ service. Bren and Vickers machine-guns were introduced in 1957, and in 1959 a radical overhaul for the FCA was announced. Defence planners had recommended the amalgamation of the PDF and FCA, and that year ‘integration’ was formally launched. This envisaged six infantry brigades, each a mix of FCA and PDF, with the reserve the larger component. Almost all FCA units would have a PDF cadre and commanding officer. - https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-fca-1946-2005/


Lament for Óglach Connaí MacGrianna, Officer-in-Command of the Saor Uladh Flying Column which launched an attack on the Rosslea Royal Ulster Constabulary Barracks, County Fermanagh on November 26, 1955. MacGrianna had also fought in the British Army during WW-II, against the Nazi’s in Italy.

The Grave In Carrickroe

In Carrickroe they made a grave
when the wild birds were at rest
And in its place a soldier brave
the equal of the best
That ever raised an Irish hand
to break the Tyrants chains
Ireland lost a son that night
and heaven made the gain

With rifle fire the bugle cried
that night in Carrickroe
As the dawn loomed in the sky
the whole wide world did know
That rich red blood had flown again
and in torrents more might flow
To right the wrongs that brought him too
his grave in Carrickroe

In truth I’ll tell his mother
how her fearless darling died
He’s gone to join that gallant clan
with honour and in pride
God rest to you in Carrickroe
your earthly cares have fled
With your name enshrined forevermore
on the road of Irelands dead

I'm sorry for the lengthy quote, but it may go someway to explaining the rationale behind Barrys decision to take up the role of I/O and T/O for the IDF during the period in question. I don't think he hung around the IRA until the late 1930's for personal gain, and his motivation to change tack, appears to have been driven by personal concern for the safety of the Irish people. Ah, to be a fly on the wall at night time, with Vinny Byrne and Co camped under the same roof as Barry and Co..
 

pinemartin

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Two time losers then, sure at least they were consistent...
That is true enough but republicans only have to win once.

The military and political landscape changes brought about by physical force and political Republicanism over the last 120 years has meant that those who support British state and its aims have dwindled to a small rump in the North East of the Island, this is a stunning reversal for Unionism. Maybe only 12 or 13% and declining of the people of Ireland now support political Unionism on the Island. This will continue to decline as sense and age profile kick in. The support for a Republican settlement on the Island is inexorable be it 20 years or 100.

All the men and women listed played their small part. They only have to be win once because that is end game in Ireland.
 

Ex celt

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Same old same old? Just as bad as the current crop of bandidos. At least the old crowd were semi-educated,partially articulate and did not spin the old human rights BS.
 

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