One big European (EU) Military

Vol

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I know how some countries would disagree with this as they wouldn't want some 'man in Brussels' controlling their Military. This is a thing to be concerned about, but what if they sorted out this problem. Do you think this would be a good idea??
 


fish08

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Anything past basic security is a waste of money. Not that the chicken-hawks would agree.
 

stringjack

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Anything past basic security is a waste of money. Not that the chicken-hawks would agree.
Federalising defence would involve significant economies of scale and scope.
 

Vol

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If a such Military was created then for example if an EU member state was attacked then this EU Military could take action against the attacker.
 

Maximilian

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Federalising defence would involve significant economies of scale and scope.
Only if we assume the disbanding of all the national armies as well. Even if a federal army was created I think some countries would be very slow to give up their own armies (France, Britain).
I think the most likely situation is that there will be a European army (a very EU way of doing things) before all European defence is truly federalised (if that ever actually happens at all) and this will lead to duplication and extra cost.
 

Zhukov

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It is extremely unlikely in the short to medium term. I do think that if an EU state was invaded we would not be neutral. We hardly have the army to intervene but in political terms we would be essentially partisan.

Also, I'm with Stringjack on the economies of scale except for one thing. As nation states European powers are complacent about having weak militaries compared to the US but we may find there is pressure to match US spending on defence if we had a European army, which would actually increase our defence spending. A European army would operate with a whole new dynamic.
 

thegeneral

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I am supportive of the botion of an EU members state army that would be called into conflicts on the continent. Srebrenica was a disgrace and the fault of we Europeans, such events on this continent cannot be allowed to happen again.
 

stringjack

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Only if we assume the disbanding of all the national armies as well. Even if a federal army was created I think some countries would be very slow to give up their own armies (France, Britain).
No, it doesn't follow that the choice is binary. Some defense functions could be centralised, others could remain at the national level - the process could be managed in any number of different ways and remain cost-effective. Even bulk purchasing/standardisation of equipment could yield significant savings, as could sharing equipment (which reduces deadtime on equipment) and training on common equipment.

Also, I'm with Stringjack on the economies of scale except for one thing. As nation states European powers are complacent about having weak militaries compared to the US but we may find there is pressure to match US spending on defence if we had a European army, which would actually increase our defence spending. A European army would operate with a whole new dynamic.
Leaving aside the new dynamic for a moment, there's an interesting discussion to be had about defense capabilities over the next 20 years and the next 50 years. What kind of defensive capabilities do we need? What kinds of things do we want to be able to accomplish.

At least nominally, European nation states still maintain the capacity to defend against a fellow member of the Union invading them. I think resources could be better deployed.
 

Vol

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I've started to notice that alot of topics I have started, are now listed under other people's names as them being the authors. lol
 

Pidge

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Why stop there? Lets all learn a new language - european, and we can force everyone to speak it.
Oh, and stop all this pissing about with our own government, lets be one big country!
 

watch-this-drive

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Co-operation good, standardisation good so long as the standards are very high.

I read an interesting briefing while back that of the Euro powers only France could try to launch a co-ordinated Land, Sea and Air campaign - the UK has basically sacraficed this ability in order to complement the US better.

If anything Europe should make sure in has good airlift capabilities and a pool of troops that can meet emergancies - Europe trailed badly when Tsunami struck.
 

stringjack

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Pidge said:
Why stop there? Lets all learn a new language - european, and we can force everyone to speak it.
Oh, and stop all this pissing about with our own government, lets be one big country!
Step aside, Jonathan Swift...
 

mjcoughlan

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In order for there to be an effective EU military (if such a thing can exist), the EU has to speak with one voice as regards foreign and security policy. The differences of opinion regarding the war on Iraq - where the UK favoured the liberation and the bribed French opposed it - just served to highlight how different European countries are. I don't believe that certain foreign policy differences between EU member states can be reconciled.
 

stringjack

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mjcoughlan said:
In order for there to be an effective EU military (if such a thing can exist), the EU has to speak with one voice as regards foreign and security policy. The differences of opinion regarding the war on Iraq - where the UK favoured the liberation and the bribed French opposed it - just served to highlight how different European countries are. I don't believe that certain foreign policy differences between EU member states can be reconciled.
I note that a substantial minority of the British parliament opposed British action in Iraq. And yet.
 

mjcoughlan

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stringjack said:
mjcoughlan said:
In order for there to be an effective EU military (if such a thing can exist), the EU has to speak with one voice as regards foreign and security policy. The differences of opinion regarding the war on Iraq - where the UK favoured the liberation and the bribed French opposed it - just served to highlight how different European countries are. I don't believe that certain foreign policy differences between EU member states can be reconciled.
I note that a substantial minority of the British parliament opposed British action in Iraq. And yet.
Of course they did. No party is without it's socialists.
 

pluralist

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mjcoughlan said:
Of course they did. No party is without it's socialists.
Oh what bullshit. I could list of tons of conservatives in the UK, France and even America that opposed the Iraq war - e.g. John Major, Douglas Hurd, Pat Buchanan. The idea that only socialists opposed the war is a fiction maintained by the useful idiots of the pro-war Bush/Cheney/Blair propaganda machine.
 

Danny

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stringjack said:
mjcoughlan said:
In order for there to be an effective EU military (if such a thing can exist), the EU has to speak with one voice as regards foreign and security policy. The differences of opinion regarding the war on Iraq - where the UK favoured the liberation and the bribed French opposed it - just served to highlight how different European countries are. I don't believe that certain foreign policy differences between EU member states can be reconciled.
I note that a substantial minority of the British parliament opposed British action in Iraq. And yet.
Because although the minorty in the British parliament wouldn't of been too happy, they didn't go into revolt because they respected the democratic mandate by those who voted for the war in Westminster as the representitive of the nation known as the United Kingdon.
This differs from a situation where the Italians [i.e. minority dissenters] have themselves dragged into a war.
 

Realism

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European military consolidation is one of the vital steps on the road to Europe being able to run the 21st century. I am amazed at how the Americans have such a stupid military doctrine that is so ineffective and also so costly to them!

Europe spends €136 billion as far as I know, against the US's €302 billion. But look at the record of both. Europe can dangle the offer of EU membership , European market access and trade deals and the like, in return for progress on human rights, economic reforms, implementation of democratic and rule of law norms. And this is what works, specially in the broad European continent. The challenge is to now make it work in the other countries of the Eurosphere. We saw the EU's success in the Ukraine, along with the US.

But look at the way the US does business. Colombia is one of their main targets, yet they are not achieving anything there. And yet they are wasting billions on an ineffective approach.

This is why when Europe consolidates, it will be able to succeed with its own complex but cost-effective pre-emptive doctrine. It will not need to spend as much as the US does on its military. It can increase its spending by only 10% and put that in to equipment that will allow it to send a large contingent of troops around the world with ease. And it can scale down its manpower total from 1.2 million to 75% of that. Training a good amount of these for smart combat activity will also help. This is in start contrast to the American doctrine which is of pre-emptive war. Theirs is everything the EU's isn't, and thus Europe will dominate the world this century. I'm loving it!

Check out Why Europe Will Run The 21st Century by Mark Leonard. Published on 21st Feb. 2005 by Fourth Estate.
 


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