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Ongoing "negotiations" on Croke Park 2 should be televised live and not held in secret.


RobertW

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Feb 11, 2011
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Currently ongoing negotiations between public sector unions and senior civil servants, FG & Labour politicians are occurring in secret and behind close doors with information unavailable to the public.

Union leaders are not informing their members, politicians are not informing those who they represent whilst journalists feed off scraps of information looking for a headline the following morning.

But should this really be the case?

These ongoing negotiations (if you could call them that) should be televised live and recorded in the national interest.

The public and the taxpayer have a right to know.

But as Enda Kenny might say. . . . Paddy doesn't need to know the story.
 

livingstone

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Mar 3, 2004
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Rubbish. Governments are elected to govern and part of that is negotiation.

Negotiation by megaphone, or negotiation conducted in public is pointless. Negotiations produce results and these results will be subject to normal scrutiny - i.e. usually a vote by unions and the public can judge a Government based on the outcome of negotiations.
 

Rocky

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Dec 9, 2004
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No negotiations of this type are ever done in public as it would be impossible for both sides to speak honestly or ever compromise.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Mar 16, 2010
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If these negotiations are indeed happening then it's a complete travesty of democracy and a completely fubar way to run the country.

For no reason I can really understand successive governments feel more aligned the will of their employees rather than the people who pay their own salaries - the tax payer.

It seems that no government has every set up ways to have two way dialogue with the tax payers to understand what we perceive as value for money and good service.
 

livingstone

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Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
24,330
If these negotiations are indeed happening then it's a complete travesty of democracy and a completely fubar way to run the country.

For no reason I can really understand successive governments feel more aligned the will of their employees rather than the people who pay their own salaries - the tax payer.

It seems that no government has every set up ways to have two way dialogue with the tax payers to understand what we perceive as value for money and good service.

Negotiations with the taxpayers are called elections.
 

RobertW

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Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
20,483
Rubbish. Governments are elected to govern and part of that is negotiation.

Negotiation by megaphone, or negotiation conducted in public is pointless. Negotiations produce results and these results will be subject to normal scrutiny - i.e. usually a vote by unions and the public can judge a Government based on the outcome of negotiations.
I suppose you'd have felt that screening the Leveson enquiry LIVE into journalist phone tapping in the UK was rubbish.

It's called accountability and transparency. . . Go and look them up in the dictionary.
 

Rocky

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Dec 9, 2004
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8,550
I suppose you'd have felt that screening the Leveson enquiry LIVE into journalist phone tapping in the UK was rubbish.

It's called accountability and transparency. . . Go and look them up in the dictionary.
The leveson enquiry weren't negotitations. It was an enquiry. They aren't comparable.
 

livingstone

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Mar 3, 2004
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I suppose you'd have felt that screening the Leveson enquiry LIVE into journalist phone tapping in the UK was rubbish.

It's called accountability and transparency. . . Go and look them up in the dictionary.

As has been noted, there is a huge difference.

Negotiations mean give and take, it means exploring options out of the glare of scrutiny to arrive at a suitable solution. That cannot happen in public, which is why no successful negotiations anywhere, ever, are made public while they are ongoing.
 

Thac0man

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Aug 13, 2006
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Twitter
twit taa woo
I suppose you'd have felt that screening the Leveson enquiry LIVE into journalist phone tapping in the UK was rubbish.

It's called accountability and transparency. . . Go and look them up in the dictionary.
I can see the point you are making. But both sides are going to start with positions and figures the other side is not going to accept. If the full details are known, then someone will look like a loser at the end if their initial conditions are not met. Full transparency carries with it the threat that proceedings might never result in compromise.
 

Rocky

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I can see the point you are making. But both sides are going to start with positions and figures the other side is not going to accept. If the full details are known, then someone will look like a loser at the end if their initial conditions are not met. Full transparency carries with it the threat that proceedings might never result in compromise.
I think full transparency carries the guarantee that proceedings will never result in compromise. No negotiations ever are done in public for that exact reason.
 

cricket

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Nov 7, 2009
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14,029
I suppose you'd have felt that screening the Leveson enquiry LIVE into journalist phone tapping in the UK was rubbish.

It's called accountability and transparency. . . Go and look them up in the dictionary.
Apples and oranges. Whatever is going on is eventually going to become public and be ballotted on by the union membership. Nothing new in that. Sidebars take place at most major negotiations.
 

Howya

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Feb 29, 2012
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Negotiations with the taxpayers are called elections.
....and then the "contract" is reneged on as soon as the successful party is in government....
 

Aindreas Ryan

Active member
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Messages
127
Currently ongoing negotiations between public sector unions and senior civil servants, FG & Labour politicians are occurring in secret and behind close doors with information unavailable to the public.

Union leaders are not informing their members, politicians are not informing those who they represent whilst journalists feed off scraps of information looking for a headline the following morning.

But should this really be the case?

These ongoing negotiations (if you could call them that) should be televised live and recorded in the national interest.

The public and the taxpayer have a right to know.

But as Enda Kenny might say. . . . Paddy doesn't need to know the story.
 

livingstone

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Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
24,330
....and then the "contract" is reneged on as soon as the successful party is in government....
So either (a) vote for a Government that won't do that, or (b) if such a Government isn't an option, make it an option or (c) if you can't make it an option, run for election.

Democracy owes you nothing more than its existence. The rest is up to the public as a collective.

None of what you say is an argument against a Government being able to take executive action like negotiations in private where necessary.
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,557
Currently ongoing negotiations between public sector unions and senior civil servants, FG & Labour politicians are occurring in secret and behind close doors with information unavailable to the public.

Union leaders are not informing their members, politicians are not informing those who they represent whilst journalists feed off scraps of information looking for a headline the following morning.

But should this really be the case?

These ongoing negotiations (if you could call them that) should be televised live and recorded in the national interest.

The public and the taxpayer have a right to know.

But as Enda Kenny might say. . . . Paddy doesn't need to know the story.
You must certainly have never been outside the classroom in the real world when it comes to business. Negotiations are never conducted in public as this would compromise the ability to speak freely and off the record about the realities of what would need to be addressed.
 

Tea Party Patriot

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
11,557
If these negotiations are indeed happening then it's a complete travesty of democracy and a completely fubar way to run the country.

For no reason I can really understand successive governments feel more aligned the will of their employees rather than the people who pay their own salaries - the tax payer.

It seems that no government has every set up ways to have two way dialogue with the tax payers to understand what we perceive as value for money and good service.
I'm no union fan boy as anyone posting on here regularly knows, but I very much doubt any Minister worth his or her salt is going to pull a unilateral decision without negotiating first and seeing what can be achieved.

That said I won't hold my breath on pay cuts and real reforms, especially while Labour are in government. Fine Gael need to get tough with them.
 
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